原创翻译 双语字幕
最新连载海外影视剧下载 仅供交流学习 禁止商用盈利 请登陆 www.YYeTs.com
翻译 星星与野狗 苏小黛 海云生
翻译 glida kathy567 C·A
翻译 王木木 慎独三冬 Sakura的小书包
校对 Sakura的小书包
时间轴 西·查 噃噃 想念Gallifrey的wholock 没有影子
后期 渔夫
本片基于参议院情报委员会 对中情局拘留和审讯项目的调查结果
总监 布塔头大
你进行这项调查有多久了 丹 How long you been working on this project, Dan?
五年 Five years.
五年 Five.
每天从早到晚 外加周末吗 Every day? Nights, weekends?
非常辛苦 It's been very consuming.
帕涅塔审查报告 最高机密 敏感信息隔离
丹 你有伴侣吗 或者家人 Do you have a relationship, Dan? Family?
我只是想更好地了解你 Just trying to get a better sense of who you are.
刚开始的时候 我在和别人约会 但是 When it started, I was seeing someone, but, you know,
考虑到工作性质和时间 with the nature of the work and the hours...
我不是一个很好的伴侣 I wasn't a very good partner.
五年 一切成果都可能化为乌有 Five years, and it could all go away.
因为这些指控而烟消云散 Just vanish in the face of these allegations.
我完全能想象 I can certainly imagine
像你这样雄心勃勃的年轻人花费数年的时间 an ambitious young man like yourself spends years
埋头于调查一些可怕的场面 with his head buried in some terrible spectacle,
对调查过程感到沮丧 gets frustrated with the process,
遇到一个能更快传出真相的机会 sees an opportunity to get the truth out faster,
也许会选择越界 maybe crosses a line.
我猜这是你参与过的 I'm assuming this is the most important thing
-最重要的事情 -我没做 - you've ever been a part of. - I didn't do it.
又或是一位同样雄心勃勃的参议员 Or I can see an equally ambitious senator
鼓励你去做点什么 encouraging you to do something.
现在是告诉我的好机会 Now would be a good time to tell me.
不是那样的 我的所作所为是个人行为 That did not happen. What I did, I did on my own.
我独自行动 I acted alone.
你睡过觉吗 兄弟 You ever sleep, bro?
我以前会睡 后来妨碍工作了 I used to. Got in the way of work.
包里有任何物品包含 Anything in that bag contain the real names
中情局职员 线人或合作伙伴的真名 of CIA officers, assets or partners,
或任何会违反 or any information that would be in violation
中央情报局和美国参议院 of the agreement between the Central Intelligence Agency
之间协议的信息吗 and the United States Senate?
-晚安 杰伊 -你也是 丹 - Have a good night, Jay. - You, too, Dan.
你确实偷了文件 So, you did steal the document?
我没偷 我转移了它 I did not steal it. I relocated it.
每个人都各执一词 Everyone has their own words.
语言是用来选择立场的 The language is built to choose sides.
你为什么要转移它 Now, why did you relocate it?
他们会把你送进监狱的 丹 They could send you to jail, Dan.
酷刑报告
我想我应该从头讲起 I think I should start at the beginning.
参议员专座
-你是丹·琼斯吗 -是 - You Dan Jones? - Yeah.
丹尼斯·麦克唐纳 Denis McDonough.
非常感谢您能见我 Thank you so much for meeting me.
进来吧 别客气 Come on in. Yeah. Absolutely.
感谢你能来 So, thanks for coming in.
讲讲你的故事吧 Tell me your story.
我读研究生的第二天是9月11日 My second day of grad school was September 11th.
我正要去听课 突然间一切都停止了 I was headed to a lecture, and everything just... stopped.
第二天 我把课都换成了国家安全方向的 The next day, I changed all my classes to national security.
好样的 Good man.
你的长期规划呢 So, what's the long-term plan?
十年后你觉得自己能做成什么样 Where do you see yourself in ten years?
要竞选公职吗 Are you running for office?
不 我对政治没什么兴趣 No. No politics for me.
我想我在幕后会更有效 I think I'd be more effective behind the scenes,
在真的可以有所作为的地方效力 somewhere I can really make a difference.
去哈佛之前呢 So, what about before Harvard?
你是怎么打发日子的 What'd you fill up your days with then?
在巴尔的摩"为美国而教"项目工作了三年 Teach For America for three years in Baltimore.
教七年级学生 Seventh-graders.
我了解到你大学毕业后在明尼苏达州圣保罗 I read that you taught high school Spanish
教高中西班牙语 in Saint Paul, Minnesota, after college?
林登·约翰逊的第一份工作是在 And LBJ's first job was teaching
德克萨斯南部的墨西哥学校教书 at the Mexican school in South Texas.
知道如何和孩子相处 Knowing how to deal with children
是在国会工作时非常有用的技能 is a highly useful skill when working on the Hill.
但从我作为参议院职员的角度来看 But from my perspective as Senate staff,
我建议你等到我们击败共和党后再加入 I would wait until things turn around up here.
我想达施勒参议员也会这么说 I think Senator Daschle would say the same thing.
去学习一些现实经验 比如从事反恐领域 Go get some real-world experience in counterterrorism,
从事外交政策 in... foreign policy.
试试中情局 试试联调局 Try the CIA. Try FBI.
让他们教你在教室里学不到的东西 Have them teach you what they don't teach you in a classroom.
然后你可以回到这里 然后 Then you can come back here, and...
帮我们收拾布什和切尼留下的烂摊子 help us fix all the things that Bush and Cheney are breaking.
我是麦克唐纳 McDonough.
是的 参议员 等一下 Yes, Senator, uh, one second.
是上司 拿着 The boss. Here.
保持联系 好吗 Keep in touch, huh?
-非常感谢你抽出时间 -不客气 - Thank you very much for your time. - Absolutely.
我现在没有这个信息 I do not have that information right now,
但我一定能在十五分钟内给你弄到 but I can certainly get that for you in the next 15.
好 Yeah.
关于德国的炸弹袭击阴谋 In regards to the bomb plots in Germany,
三个人在梅德巴赫被捕 three men were arrested in Medebach
搜获680千克过氧化氢 with 1,500 pounds of hydrogen peroxide
以及26个军用级雷管 and 26 military-grade detonators.
中情局怀疑伊斯兰圣战联盟... The CIA suspects the Islamic Jihad Union...
打扰一下 Excuse me.
能跟我来一下吗 丹 Can I borrow you for a minute, Dan?
参议员想见你 Senator would like to see you.
没问题 Yeah, of course.
参议员黛安·范斯坦 加州
-早上好 丹 -早上好 参议员 - Morning, Dan. - Morning, Senator.
今天《纽约时报》的报道你看了吗 Have you seen the story today in The New York Times?
没有 参议员 我还没看 No, Senator, I have not.
显然 中情局销毁了 Evidently, the CIA destroyed tapes
对基地组织在押人员的审讯录像带 of interrogations of Al Qaeda detainees.
情报委员会知道有录像带吗 Did the Intel Committee know there were tapes?
不 这是我第一次听说 No. This is the first I've heard of it.
我想知道录像带上记录了什么 So, I want to find out what was on the tapes
以及它们被销毁的原因 and why they were destroyed.
我们要你来领导调查 丹 We want you to lead the investigation, Dan.
但是如果录像带被销毁了 我们怎么... But if the tapes were destroyed, how do we...
他们说他们有书面记录 They're saying they have written records.
成千上万页 我们看看到底有没有 Thousands of pages. Let's see about that.
我要你弄清楚他们到底有什么 I want you to find out exactly what they have
每个字都要读 and read every word of it.
这份关于中情局销毁录像带的报告 This report on the destruction of tapes by the CIA
-调查耗时两年 -谢谢 - has been two years in the making. - Thank you.
调查结果非常令人担忧 The findings are very troubling,
参议院情报特别委员会 敏感信息隔离设施
但它仍然属于机密 but it will remain classified.
基于这些发现 一次更大规模的 Based on these revelations, a larger study into
针对整个中情局拘留和审讯项目的调查 the entire CIA Detention and Interrogation Program
显然十分必要 is clearly in order.
赞成者 请说"赞成" All in favor, say "yay."
-怀特豪斯先生 -赞成 - Mr. Whitehouse? - Yay.
-博格先生 -赞成 - Mr. Berg? - Yay.
-洛克菲勒先生 -赞成 - Mr. Rockefeller? - Yay.
钱布利斯先生 Mr. Chambliss?
-反对 -里施先生 - Nay. - Mr. Risch?
我认为这是浪费时间 I think this is a waste of time.
我知道你投了反对票 萨克斯比 Now, I know you voted against this, Saxby...
但你已经调查过录像带的事了 But you already had your tapes investigation.
是的 但我们都赞成进一步调查 十四票对一票 Yes, but the rest of us voted to go further, 14 to one.
提供监督是我们的职责 It's our job to provide oversight.
在竞选期间 All during the campaign,
你们的候选人奥巴马声称 you got candidate Obama saying
他想成为第一位后党派总统 how he wanted to be the first post-partisan president.
萨克斯比 你了解我 Saxby, you know me.
我希望人们将这份报告视作 It's my intention that this report be seen
整个情报委员会的共同努力 as coming from the entire Intelligence Committee,
不仅仅是来自民主党 not just the Democrats.
那谁来领导调查 So, who takes the lead?
我考虑的人选是丹·琼斯 Well, I was thinking Dan Jones.
他在联调局从事了四年反恐工作 He spent four years doing counterterrorism at the FBI.
国家情报总监办公室
他已经拿到了安全许可 He's already got the security clearances.
规则和录像带调查一样 The rules are the same as the tapes investigation.
不含政治 不含偏见 No politics, no bias,
参议员对观点或理论 and the senator isn't interested
不感兴趣 只要事实 in opinions or theories, just facts.
根据你已经发现的情况 Based on what you found out already,
接着查下去可能很可怕 this could go to a pretty dark place.
你得把你的个人感情排除在外 You need to keep your personal feelings out of it.
这是共和党人最看重的一点 That's the first thing Republicans are gonna look for.
不能跟媒体或你女友 No talking to the press or your girlfriend
或任何家庭成员谈论这起调查 or any family members.
委员会之外的人都不行 Nobody outside of the committee.
你会得到一个六人的团队 You're gonna get a team of six...
三个共和党人 三个民主党人 three Republicans, three Democrats...
但报告里不能有任何共和党的陈词 but there can't be any Republican sentences
或者是民主党的段落 or Democratic paragraphs.
我们有多长时间 And how long do we have?
我们希望你能在一年左右的时间内完成报告 We're hoping you can wrap it up in a year or so.
你得向参议员汇报你的最新进展 You're gonna have to keep the senators updated on your work.
没人想要突发信息 Nobody wants any surprises.
弗吉尼亚州有一个秘密的中情局办公室 There's a covert CIA off-site in Virginia.
你明天开始工作 You start tomorrow.
琼斯 对吧 我是肖恩 Jones, right? Sean.
-你好 我是丹 -我是中情局的肖恩·墨菲 - Hi. Dan. - Sean Murphy from the Agency.
-我们进去吧 -好的 - Let's go inside. - Okay.
身份证明 先生们 Identification, gentlemen.
我们指定的房间是敏感信息隔离设施 The room we've designated is a SCIF.
没有电话信号 不能拍照 你知道的 No phone reception, no photos... you know the drill...
铅墙 lead walls.
根据协议 And, per the agreement,
这个房间禁止 the room is off-limits to everyone
-委员会以外的人进入 -当然 - except committee personnel. - Absolutely.
没有你的允许谁都不能进去 No one inside without your permission.
-电脑呢 -就在这里 - And the computers? - Right here.
你自己的专用服务器 气隙工作站 Your own dedicated server, air-gapped workstations.
我们根据进展随时更新数据库 We'll be updating the database as we go.
我们从局里收集文件时 The files will be loaded on here as we collect them
-会把它们放在这里 -很好 - from across the Agency. - Great.
我们需要尽快拿到所有相关文件 We'll want all relevant documents as soon as possible.
-我们得先进行审查 -审查 - Well, we got to vet it first. - Vet?
有很多文件需要审查... There's a lot to...
帕涅塔局长同意提供 Director Panetta agreed to give us
与项目有关的所有资料 everything pertaining to the program.
由谁进行审查 Wh-Who would be, who would be vetting it?
这是个大机构 It's a big agency.
我们要确保你不会看到 We got to make sure you don't get anything
你不该看的东西 you're not supposed to.
仅限美国参议院情报委员会职员进入
别拘束 Make yourself at home.
没有打印机吗 There's... no printer?
没有纸 No paper.
没有中情局的批准 No documents are allowed to leave the room
文件不准离开房间 without CIA approval.
纸在中情局可是个麻烦事 Paper has a way of getting people in trouble at our place.
我们迟早会需要打印机 I think at some point we're gonna need a printer.
还有纸 And paper.
在参议院 At our place...
纸是我们记录法律的途径 paper's how we keep track of laws.
好吧 Okay.
最高机密 中情局简报备忘录
基地组织
两名劫机嫌疑犯
马来西亚会议
世贸中心
否认知情 情况紧急
...将此事称为显而易见的恐怖袭击 ...calling this an obvious terrorist attack
2001年9月11日
反恐中心
基于非常初步的信息 based on very preliminary information,
情报职员目前正在获取的信息... the information that intelligence officials are getting...
坏消息 You're not gonna like this.
可能是一起劫机事件 当然 ...a possible hijacked plane, and of course
关于飞机的那段非常可怕的视频... the-the very horrifying video of the plane...
我们确认了一些名字 We confirmed some of the names.
劫机者的名字吗 The hijackers?
马来西亚会议中两名参会者的名字 Two of the guys from the Malaysia meetings.
那两个圣地亚哥人 他们劫持了77号航班 The San Diego guys. They took down Flight 77.
五角大楼 Pentagon.
让两架飞机撞击大楼的配合... ...the coordination that took place to have two planes hit the towers...
大家请注意 Attention, everyone, please.
我们有理由相信 反恐中心 We have reason to believe the Counterterrorism Center
是潜在的袭击目标 is a potential target.
请所有人员立即撤离 We're asking all personnel to evacuate, immediately.
吉姆·米克拉泽夫斯基在五角大楼为您报道 Jim Miklaszewski there from the Pentagon.
当然 总统有权 Of course, the president has the authority
出动军队 to scramble military, uh, forces,
并且很显然 目前的情况 and, uh, this is a case, obviously,
如果证实 in which, uh, retaliation,
确实是恐怖袭击 if indeed it proves to be a terrorist incident,
将会进行军事报复 will be contemplated.
不过 我们也得做些 We also have to work, though,
中情局总部 2001年9月16日
见不得光的工作 可以这么说 sort of, the-the dark side, if you will.
我们得花些时间在暗处 We've got to spend time in the shadows
进行情报工作 in-in the intelligence world.
有很多必做之事 A lot of what needs to be done here
将被悄无声息地完成 不经过任何讨论 will have to be done quietly, without any discussion...
我他妈警告过他们了 Fucking warned them.
8月6日对总统进行的简报 August 6th presidential briefing:
"本·拉登决定袭击美国" "Bin Ladin Determined to Strike in U.S."
"情况紧急" "Flashing red lights."
在那之前呢 7月时我们怎么说的 And before that, in July, what did we say?
"接下来的数周乃至数月内 "There will be significant terrorist attacks
将有针对美国的重大恐怖袭击" against the United States in the weeks and months to come."
不是你的错 It's not your fault.
那是种恶毒不堪 危险肮脏的行当 It is a mean, nasty, dangerous, uh, dirty business out there,
而我们得在其中开展行动 and we have to operate in that arena.
但我们需要确定 我们没有 But we need to make certain that we have not
束缚我们的情报机构 tied the hands, if you will, of our intelligence community.
我和反恐中心主任布莱克 Counterterrorism Director Black and I saw President Bush
这周末在戴维营见了布什总统 at Camp David this weekend.
总统向我保证 中情局的领导层 And the president gave me his word that there will be
不会因周二的袭击而发生变动 no changes in CIA leadership as a result of Tuesday's attacks.
我们现在要向前看 We will look forward now,
不能浪费时间去马后炮或追责 not waste time second-guessing or looking for blame.
接下来 我们要成为 Going forward, we will be the tip of the spear
与基地组织之战的尖兵 in the battle against Al Qaeda.
我跟总统保证了 两周时间 As I said to the president, two weeks,
我们要在基地组织眼皮底下安排探子 we'll have flies walking across Al Qaeda eyeballs.
我邀请了首席法律顾问里佐来向我们说明 I've asked Chief Counsel Rizzo here to walk us through
在法律角度上 我们目前的情况 where we are from a legal standpoint.
总统下发了备忘通知 The president has issued a memorandum of notification
授权中情局在战场上逮捕及拘留 giving CIA the power to capture and detain suspected terrorists
嫌疑恐怖分子 on the battlefield.
把他们拘留在哪 Detain them where?
我们要把他们带回美国吗 Are we bringing them to the U.S.?
反恐中心可不搞 We're really not in the prison business
-监狱那一套 -听我说 - over in Counterterrorism. - Look,
反恐中心上周的预算是多少 the budget for Counterterrorism last week was what?
六个亿 $600 million?
这周的预算不设上限 The budget this week is whatever you need it to be.
只要能完成任务 我们不择手段 And we are in whatever business it takes to get the job done.
起初 中情局的法务 Initially, CIA legal
声明任何用于关押的设施 stated that any facility used to hold detainees
都需达到美国监狱局的要求 had to meet the requirements of the U.S. Bureau of Prisons,
但后来 副局长帕维特认为 but then Deputy Director Pavitt
那样局限太大 thought that was gonna be too limiting.
那么 是谁想出了黑狱的主意 So, who came up with the black sites?
还不太清楚 我的猜想是 Not totally clear. My guess
要么是反恐中心的高级职员 is either a senior officer at Counterterr... CTC,
要么是亚历克站的本·拉登小组 or Alec Station bin Laden unit
认定黑狱是最好的选择 decided black sites were the best option.
中情局有没有告知国务院 Well, did the CIA tell the State Department
他们在跟人协商要在境外拘留人员 they were making deals to hold people on foreign soil?
国务卿鲍威尔在此事中扮演了什么角色 Where was Secretary of State Powell in all this?
我找到了一份备忘录 Well, I found a memo.
中情局的法律总顾问 The CIA's general counsel...
声称决定是 said the decision was made
不将该项目告知鲍威尔 not to tell Powell about the program,
因为 because...
"如果他知道了情况 "He would blow his stack
一定会大发雷霆" if he were to be briefed on what was going on."
谁的决定 Well, who decided that?
某个白宫内部的人 Someone inside the White House.
那审讯呢 What about interrogations?
布什总统的备忘录 President Bush's memoranda
只授权了逮捕和拘留 just authorized capturing and detaining.
丝毫没有提到审讯的事 It didn't say anything about interrogations.
那么是谁给他们许可去做那些事的 And who gave them permission to play that role?
没人 看起来是从反恐中心的法务开始的 Nobody. It looks like it started with legal at CTC.
要我把这事汇报给麦凯恩参议员吗 Do you want me to brief Senator McCain on this?
我知道他感兴趣 I know he's interested.
共和党退出了这次调查 丹 The Republicans just pulled out of the study, Dan.
早上好 Good morning.
大伙人呢 Where is everybody?
司法部长霍尔德启动了对中情局的 Attorney General Holder opened a criminal investigation
犯罪调查 into the CIA.
因此 中情局不允许他们的任何人 As a result, the Agency won't allow any of their people
接受我们的访谈 to be interviewed for our report.
共和党不认为调查还能继续 The Republicans don't see how we can move forward,
所以他们退出了 so they're out.
那调查要中止吗 So, does this mean we stop?
毕竟 委员会投过票赞成调查的 I mean, the committee voted to investigate.
参议员让我们继续 The senator says we keep going.
但我们无法询问任何 But we can't actually talk to anyone
-参与过这一项目的人 -对 - who was involved in the program. - Right.
据中情局法务所说 中情局的人只对司法部的人开口 According to CIA legal, CIA personnel is only speaking to DOJ.
那司法部会分享他们的发现吗 And is DOJ gonna share their findings?
我是说 我们能跟他们合作吗 I mean, can we work with them?
我已经联系了特别检察官 I've reached out to the special prosecutor.
正在等他的回复 I'm waiting to hear back.
好 但如果参与过项目的人 Okay, but if nobody who actually worked on the program
都不肯跟我们谈 我们要怎么调查 is going to talk to us, how do we investigate?
我们有文件 So, we have the files,
他们的电子邮件和电报 备忘录 their e-mails and cables, their memos.
我们要用他们自己的沟通记录将事情展现出来 We have to use their own communications to tell the story.
你知道这会有多难吗 Do you have any idea how hard that's gonna be?
录像带的调查可花了两年 丹 The tapes investigation took two years, Dan,
而这可远比录像带上的内容要复杂得多 and this is about a lot more than what was on the tapes.
我们都不知道这到底算什么 We don't even know what this is.
对 但我们知道这事的始作俑者 Right, but we do know who it starts with.
我们一次找一位受押人员 We go one detainee at a time.
阿布·祖贝达 2002年3月
最高机密
阿布·祖贝达
于费萨尔巴被捕
重伤
出发日期 2004年8月23日 周一 返程日期 2004年8月28日 周六
联调局审讯祖贝达
特别探员阿里·苏凡
黑狱
阿布·祖贝达被交给绿色拘留点
绿色拘留点 2002年3月
你会说英语吗 You speak English?
我叫阿里·苏凡 我是联调局的 My name is Ali Soufan. I'm with the FBI.
你被捕了 You're under arrest.
-明白吗 -不 你们要带我去哪 - You understand? - No. Where are you taking me?
你的伤口感染了 Your wound is infected.
但我们会照顾好你的 But we're going to take good care of you.
我要给你看样东西 I want to show you something.
他在跟镜头外的什么人说话 He's talking to someone off-screen.
他叫他穆赫塔尔 He's calling him Mukhtar.
你知道是谁吗 You know who that is?
穆赫塔尔 Mukhtar.
脑子飞走的人
就像飞机一样
一个疯子 A man who lost his mind?
哪个是他
不 不是他 No, not him.
哈立德·谢赫·穆罕默德 Khalid Sheikh Mohammed?
我会让医生进来看看你
然后我会回来 我们继续聊
喝百事可乐吗
我能活下来吗
如果安拉愿意的话
阿布·祖贝达确认了哈立德就是 Abu Zubaydah confirmed that KSM is the leader
基地组织在阿富汗境外所有行动的头领 of all Al Qaeda operations outside of Afghanistan.
他训练了那些劫机者 He trained the hijackers.
我们认为他就是主谋 We're calling him the mastermind.
了不起 Outstanding.
向本·拉登小组致敬 Hats off to the bin Laden group.
不管是你们哪个手下查出了这些 Whichever one of your people did this,
我都想亲自打电话祝贺 I want to call them and congratulate them in person.
是谁 Who was it?
不是我们的人 Wasn't our guy.
什么 那是谁 What? Who got it?
联调局在审讯祖贝达 FBI is working Zubaydah.
是联调局的人查到的 An FBI guy got this?
是的 阿里·苏凡 Yes, Ali Soufan.
他们在科尔调查中用过他 They used him in the Cole investigation.
他是他们反恐组的人 他会说阿拉伯语 He's part of their counterterrorism group. He speaks Arabic.
我不在乎谁会说阿拉伯语 I don't care who speaks Arabic.
这可不只是犯罪调查 This is not just a criminal investigation.
我们这里是收集情报的 We are gathering intelligence here.
这是我们的职责 That is what we do.
联调局着眼于过去 The FBI is looking at the past.
而我们要阻止未来的恐怖袭击 We need to stop attacks in the future.
我要中情局的人跟那家伙在一起 明白吗 I want CIA in the room with this guy, okay?
我要中情局的人跟祖贝达在一起 I want CIA in the room with Zubaydah.
我们有谁能让他开口 So, who do we have who can work on him?
中情局运作线人 他们都是会配合的人 CIA runs sources, people who cooperate.
这些人可不一样 That's not these guys.
我们没榨干受押人大脑的每一秒 Every second we are not draining the detainee's brain,
都是赌运气 we are rolling the dice.
我们得派自己的人去那里 We need our people in the room.
我们现在得做提问的人 We need to be the ones asking the questions now.
我听一个技术服务部的人说过 I heard from someone over in Technical Services,
一个叫米里亚姆的女人 a woman named Miriam,
关于几个空军心理学家 about a couple of Air Force psychologists
他们加入后给审讯带来了全新的方法 who came in and pitched a whole new approach to interrogations.
吉姆·米切尔和布鲁斯·杰森 Jim Mitchell and Bruce Jessen.
米里亚姆说米切尔有秘诀 Miriam says Mitchell has the special sauce.
祖贝达没完全交待 Zubaydah didn't tell us everything,
因为我们在中途戛然而止了 because we stopped short of where we needed to go.
SERE代表生存 躲避 反抗和逃跑 SERE stands for Survival, Evasion, Resistance and Escape.
这是一个帮助美国特种部队的项目 It's a program to help prepare U.S. Special Forces
帮助他们应对一旦被捕可能遭遇的一切 for whatever they might encounter if captured.
我观察SERE技术 Now, I have over 14,000 hours
超过一万四千小时 observing SERE interrogation techniques.
布鲁斯观察的时间更久 Bruce here has more than that...
观察 而不是... Observing, as opposed to...?
我也上过指导如何审讯的课程 I took a course in conducting interrogations as well.
我曾和志愿者进行过模拟审讯 I worked with volunteers in actual simulations.
我们认为可以对SERE技术 We feel we can reverse engineer
进行反向工程 从而产生习得性无助 these SERE techniques to induce learned helplessness.
3D方法 虚弱 依赖 恐惧
你能解释一下 Can you explain what that means,
"反向工程"指什么吗 "reverse engineer"?
我们不用这些技术保护我们的人 Instead of using these techniques to protect our people,
而是用它使受押人服从 we use them to achieve compliance in the detainees.
我们的项目包括对受押人 Our plan involves, uh, using individual assessments
进行个体评估 搭建一项催生 of detainees to create a program designed to induce
虚弱 依赖和恐惧的项目 debility, dependency and dread.
-我们称之为3D -3D - We call these the three "D"s. - Three "D"s.
这种方法有科学依据 And there's science to back this up?
是的 是的 先生 Oh, yes. Yes, sir.
打断一下 米切尔博士 Excuse me, Dr. Mitchell.
你能详细解释一下你想用的具体手法吗 Can you elaborate on, uh, the techniques you'll be employing?
当然可以 Absolutely.
立正抓领 双手抓住受押人的领口 将其拉近
立正抓领 The, uh, the attention grasp.
撞墙 以"项圈" 如卷起的头巾 毛巾等 圈住受押人的脖子作为辅助 向前拉项圈同时迅速结实地将对象双肩 撞到柔性墙上 制造巨大声响 使对象产生被重击的幻觉以恐吓对象 但不制造伤害
撞墙 Walling.
控头技术 把手掌放在受押人脸颊两边 不让头移动 避免手指碰到受押人双眼
控头技术 Facial hold.
掌掴或冒犯性扇击 掌掴受押人的脸 打击嘴唇至耳朵旁边侧颊部位 以惊吓 羞辱对方
掌掴或者说冒犯性扇击 The facial slap or insult slap.
盒子禁闭 将受押人关在狭小空间两小时 或能站立的较大空间十八小时 可以在空间中置入无害昆虫
盒子禁闭 Cramped confinement.
面墙站立 Wall standing.
面墙站立 受押人距墙约1.2米双臂撑墙 只用手指支撑在墙上承担全身重量 不许移动或调整姿势
压力姿势 受押人坐在地上双腿前伸举手过头 或跪坐于地后仰四十五度 以肌肉过度疲劳与体力耗尽制造不适感
压力姿势 Stress positions.
剥夺睡眠 迫使受押人清醒超过一百八十小时 同时保持站立或压力姿势 受押人双手可以拷在头上 可能导致出现极端幻觉
剥夺睡眠 Sleep deprivation.
水刑 将受押人绑在木板或长凳上 以布料盖住口鼻 往受押人脸上倒水以制造溺水感 可能会导致惊厥或呕吐 呛水 以及胸膛和四肢不自觉抽搐
水刑 Waterboarding.
使用昆虫 威胁受押人将其与毒虫关在一个狭小密闭空间 但放入无害昆虫
使用昆虫 Use of insects.
模拟下葬 将受押人关在与棺材类似的狭窄盒子里 盒子留有气孔以防窒息
以及模拟下葬 And mock burials.
我个人认为 Well, from my perspective,
这似乎可以改变目前的局面 this seems like it could be a potential game changer,
但当然 but, of course...
这由罗德里格斯主任决定 it's up to Director Rodriguez.
如果我们真的要阻止下一次袭击 I think if we're serious about stopping the next threat,
我们就得成熟点 we need to put on our big boy pants
给当局他们所需要的 and provide the authorities these guys need.
这些方法可能会 These approaches might...
导致国防部的一些人的非议 raise some eyebrows at Defense.
我们又不是国防部 我们是中情局 Well, we're not at Defense. We're at the CIA.
另外 你刚说过 Besides, you just said,
我们一直都在自己人身上用这套SERE的东西 we use this SERE stuff on our guys all the time.
我认为没问题 I don't see a problem.
中情局决定聘用米切尔博士不久后 Shortly after the CIA's decision
阿布·祖贝达被转移到一间 to engage Dr. Mitchell, Abu Zubaydah was moved
二十四小时不熄灯的牢房 to a cell that was lit 24 hours a day.
牢房里播放干扰他睡眠的高分贝噪声 Loud noise was fed into his cell to disrupt his sleep.
那之前让他招供的人呢 What about the guy who got him talking?
阿里·苏凡吗 Ali Soufan?
等等 他是联调局的 不是中情局的 Wait, he's FBI, not CIA.
所以我们可以问他 对吗 So, we can ask him questions, right?
这不违反规定 No rule against that.
我们可以试试 We can try.
有效的审讯技术只有一种 There's only one interrogation technique
建立友好关系 that works: rapport building.
你与他们亲近 他们就会敞开心门 You get close to these guys, and they open up.
但中情局不信这套 But the CIA didn't believe that.
看看阿布·祖贝达 Just look at Abu Zubaydah.
你让他开口了 你怎么做到的 Well, you got him to talk. How'd you do that?
我去给他播放了一段他自己的录音 I walked in one day and played him a tape of himself.
大部分都录的是他用手机通话 Most of it was of a phone conversation.
我们监听了他的手机 We had tapped his phones.
但他打完电话忘记挂了 But he forgot to hang up at the end of the call,
所以我们录到了一些他房子里的背景音 so we had all this background noise of his house.
然后我搭档带着 Then my partner walked in
一整箱录音带进来了 with a big box full of cassette tapes.
我们告诉他说我们监听了他的安全屋 We told him we had bugged his safe house;
已经监听了数月 we had been listening for months;
我们什么都知道 所以撒谎没用的 we knew everything, so lying was pointless.
他看着一整箱录音带... He looked at the box full of tapes and...
所有的录音带都是空带 And all-all the tapes were blank.
当然 Of course they were.
但他不知道 But he didn't know that.
所以他开口了 So, he talked.
那承包商出现之后呢 What happened when the contractors showed up?
他是谁 Who the fuck is this?
2002年4月
米切尔博士是空军的心理学家 Dr. Mitchell is an Air Force psychologist,
他研究出了一套新的审讯方法 and he's developed a new method of interrogation.
我们要新审讯方法干什么 Why-why do we need a new method?
他没完全交待 He's not telling you everything.
我们认为他知道的更多 We think he knows more.
我们认为他是基地组织的 We put him at number three
三号或四号头目 or number four in Al Qaeda leadership.
他可能知道下一次袭击的情报 He probably knows the next move.
你会说阿拉伯语吗 吉姆 盖瑞会吗 Do you speak Arabic, Jim? Does Gary here?
我不需要会 Don't need to.
我能问你件事吗 Can I ask you something?
你审讯过哪怕一个极端分子吗 Have you ever interrogated any sort of extremist before?
-了解基地组织吗 -不 - Know much about Al Qaeda? - No.
你审讯过恐怖分子吗 Have you ever interrogated any sort of terrorist before?
-没有 -罪犯呢 - No. - Any sort of criminal?
没有 No.
你审讯过任何人吗 Have you ever interrogated anyone before?
这不重要 It's not important.
他是个人 我是心理学家 He's a human; I'm a psychologist.
他知道一个秘密 He knows a secret,
我会让他把这秘密告诉盖瑞 and I'm gonna get him to tell that secret to Gary.
你要对他做的事不是... What-what are you going to do to him that isn't...
我要做什么 What am I gonna do?
吉姆要做什么 What is Jim gonna do?
吉姆要做管用的事情 Jim's gonna do what works.
我们走 废物 Let's go, shitbird!
过来 混蛋 Move it, asshole!
救命 救命 Help! Please!
你不能随便给穆斯林男人剃须 You can't just shave a Muslim man.
你知道那意味着什么吗 Do you know what that means?
他会封闭自我的 He's going to shut down.
必须一上来就羞辱他 Got to humiliate him, right off the bat.
脱光他的衣服也是一个目的 Same reason we took away his clothes.
为什么要放这么响的音乐 Why the loud music?
剥夺睡眠 Sleep deprivation.
他开口我们就关掉音乐 We stop the music when he starts talking.
到时候他就可以睡觉了 Then he can sleep.
人疲劳了就会说实话吗 Tired people tell the truth?
习得性无助 Learned helplessness.
你熟悉马丁·塞利格曼博士吗 You're familiar with Dr. Martin Seligman?
塞利格曼用狗做了个实验 Seligman did an experiment with dogs.
他把狗关进笼子 He put them in a cage
笼子中间有个障碍 with a barrier running down the middle.
笼子一边通电 另一边不通电 And one side of the cage was electrified and the other wasn't.
起初 他电击狗以后 At first, when he shocked the dogs,
狗会跳到障碍另一边 they'd jump over the barrier to get away.
然后他就在两边都通电 And then he electrified both sides.
无路可逃 There was no escape.
狗不再相信自己能改变什么 No belief they could change anything.
他再打开笼门 He'd open the door to the cage,
狗甚至都不出去了 they wouldn't even leave.
这就是习得性无助 It's learned helplessness.
我们就准备把这个注入这人 That's what we're gonna instill in this man.
你会看到的 You'll see.
棺材 你要杀了他吗 A coffin? You're gonna kill him?
叫它禁闭盒吧 Let's call it a confinement box.
我做了这个 还有个小一点的 I got this one, and I got a smaller one.
你要把他关进去吗 And you're gonna put him in there?
加上这个 根据我的评估 他讨厌这个 With these, which, based on my evaluation, he hates.
你疯了 Are you out of your mind?
我们不做这种事情 We don't do this.
你知道这是犯法的 You know this is against the law.
最上面的人签字同意了 The most senior people have signed off on it.
我们是要送他上法庭的 We're putting him on trial.
这要怎么起诉他 How are we gonna build a case against him?
谁说他要上法庭 Who says he's getting a trial?
我当场就像逮捕他 I wanted to arrest him right there on the spot.
-我跟局里说了这个 -他们怎么说 - I told the Bureau that. - What'd they say?
他们通报了穆勒局长 They briefed Director Mueller,
然后让我离开那里 所以我就离开了 and told me to get the hell out of there, so I did.
-那是什么时候 -五月底 五月中或是 - When was that? - Late May, mid-May or...
因为我找到了记录 'Cause I'm finding records that say that
显示米切尔六月初就离开了 Mitchell left a little while later, early June,
休闲娱乐 去总部开会 for R&R and some meetings at headquarters.
但我们有一个高价值受押人 But we had one high-value detainee in custody,
阿布·祖贝达 Abu Zubaydah.
米切尔离开后 中情局把他单独关起来 And after Mitchell left, the CIA put him in isolation,
四十七天都没问他一个问题 and didn't ask him a single question for 47 days.
你跟我开玩笑吗 Are you fucking kidding me?
那个夏天 整个国家都处于红色警戒 The whole country was on red alert that summer.
他们要是真那么担心下一次袭击 If they were so concerned about the next attack,
他们为什么不审讯他了 why'd they stop asking questions?
对 这说不通 Right, it doesn't make any sense.
心理学家出现后 Once the psychologist showed up,
基本上一切都停摆了 almost nothing did anymore.
中情局说祖贝达参与了 The CIA said Zubaydah was involved
基地组织发动的 in every major terrorist operation
所有重大恐怖袭击 carried out by Al Qaeda.
他们告诉总统 They told the president
他是基地组织的三号或四号人物 he was number three or four in the organization.
是的 我也是这么以为的 Yes, that was my understanding as well.
祖贝达是主犯这一判断 And the claim that Zubaydah was a major player
是他们告知司法部需要采取更强硬措施的 was the main justification they gave to the Justice Department
主要理由 for needing to go harder.
他们当时很确定他知道下一次袭击的情报 They were certain he knew about the next attack.
但昨晚我发现了这个 But last night I found this.
证明祖贝达不是基地组织的三号或四号人物 Turns out Zubaydah wasn't three or four in the organization.
他都不在基地组织的领导层 He wasn't part of Al Qaeda leadership at all.
他们只有一个线人这么指认他 They only had one source calling him that,
那线人后来也承认自己撒谎 and that source later admitted he was lying.
所以他们夸大了他的身份 So, they exaggerated who he was
好让总统和司法部 to the president and the Department of Justice
在法律上批准这些新技术 in order to get legal approvals for these new techniques?
你是这个意思吗 Is that what you're saying?
我认为有这个可能 I think that's a possibility.
这个项目自他而始 The program really starts with him.
绿色拘留点 2002年8月4日
你们以前用过这个吗 Have you guys used this thing before?
水刑吗 The waterboard?
没有 这是海军的做法 No, it's a Navy thing.
但我们看了个录像 But we watched a video.
我们在彼此身上做了测试 We tested it on each other,
为了体验一下具体感觉 just to get a feel for the experience.
安全吗 Is it safe?
安全 Yes.
你在美国国内的同伙是谁 Who are the operatives inside the U.S.?
我不知道 I don't know!
下一次袭击是什么时候 When is the next attack?
我不知道 I don't know.
一 二 三 四 五 One, two, three, four, five,
六 七 八 九 十 十一 six, seven, eight, nine, 10, 11,
十二 十三 十四 12, 13, 14,
十五 十六 十七 十八 15, 16, 17, 18,
十九 二十 二十一 二十二 19, 20, 21, 22,
二十三 二十四 二十五 二十六 23, 24, 25, 26.
下一次袭击是什么时候 When is the next attack?
你在美国国内的同伙是谁 Who are the operatives inside the U.S.?
包里有任何物品包含 Anything in that bag contain
中情局职员 线人或合作伙伴的真名 the real names of CIA officers, assets or partners,
或任何会违反中央情报局 or any information that would violate the agreement between
与美国参议院之间协议的信息吗 the Central Intelligence Agency and the United States Senate?
-没有 -好的 晚安 - All good. - All right, good night.
-晚安 杰伊 -平安到家 - Have a good night, Jay. - Get home safe.
晚安 Good night.
丹·琼斯吗 Dan Jones?
我认识你吗 Do I know you?
不 但我应该能帮到你 No, but I think I can help you.
-帮我什么 -强化审讯技术项目 - Help-help me with what? - The EIT program.
你在调查这个吧 That's what you're looking into, isn't it?
你得保证不在任何地方提及我的名字 I need to know I won't be named, anywhere.
我还在局里 I'm still with the Agency.
光是来这里跟你说话 都是... My even being here with you, talking, is...
你参与了什么 What was your involvement?
医疗服务部门 黑狱 Office of Medical Services, black sites.
-你是医生吗 -医生助手 - So, you're a doctor? - Physician's assistant.
美国医学协会 The American Medical Association
不会允许医生参与 won't allow doctors to be involved.
他们立誓 不伤害 They take an oath: do no harm.
我们是除医生外最合适的 We're the next best thing.
承包商到时我在那里 I was there when the contractors arrived.
他们录了阿布·祖贝达的审讯过程 They made tapes of the Abu Zubaydah interrogations,
但是其中21小时的 but there's a 21-hour period
记录不见了 什么也没有 where the transcripts are missing... nothing.
他们当时在用水刑 They were using the waterboard.
祖贝达失去了意识 Zubaydah lost consciousness.
他差点窒息而死 溺水 He was choking to death, drowning.
不只是觉得自己溺水 Not just thinking he was drowning,
他是真的溺水了 he was actually fucking drowning.
他们跟我说水刑 I was told that the waterboard
是别无他法时才会用 was only gonna be used as a last resort.
承包商对囚犯做了评估 The contractors did an assessment of the prisoner,
-他们决定... -什么评估 - and they made a call... - What kind of assessment?
他们把他往墙上撞了几次 They bounced him off the walls a few times
然后把他捆着 往他喉咙里灌水 and then strapped him down and poured water down his throat.
我们知道这是一种不同的审讯手段 We understand this is a different approach,
-但它有科学依据 -科学 - but it's based on science. - Science?
得了吧 什么科学 Come on. What science?
-你见过他们的科学吗 -他们认为水刑 - Have you seen their science? - They believe the waterboard
起到了让囚犯服从的作用 is working here to create compliance.
他们当然这么想 Well, of course they do.
什么时候用是他们说了算 They're the ones who get to decide when it's used.
有没有效果也是他们说了算 And they're also the ones who get to decide if it's working.
这根本就不符合道德 How is that even ethical?
我们面对的这些人使日常生活武器化 The people we're dealing with weaponized daily life.
你想谈谈那事的道德吗 Would you like to talk about the ethics of that?
我们是来确保那样的事不会再发生 We're here to make sure that nothing like that ever happens again.
他们在某个山洞里训练自己的人 They're training their people to resist traditional interrogations
抵抗传统审讯 in the back of a cave somewhere.
所以我们需要改变方法 So we need to change our approach
免得又一炸弹爆炸 又一幢楼坍塌 before another bomb goes off or another building falls down.
好吧 好吧 Okay, okay.
如果我们一个士兵被捕 What is gonna happen when one of our soldiers gets captured
拿出一张写着日内瓦公约的卡片 and takes out a card with the Geneva Convention on it
想被当人一样对待 会发生什么 and wants to be treated like a human being?
你以为抓他的人会不记得 You think his captors aren't gonna remember
这些人在这里受到了什么对待吗 the way these people were treated here?
-这都为了什么 -你家里有孩子吗 - And for what? - Do you have a kid at home?
我们不能再被打倒了 We're not gonna get beat again.
除了站长 Besides the chief of station,
你向上级汇报你的疑虑了吗 did you report your concerns up the chain of command?
罗德里格斯主任给我们发了电报 We got a cable from Director Rodriguez
告诉我们不要把审讯对象记录在案 telling us to stop putting our objections in writing.
不要有书面记录 No paper trail.
我告诉他们如果继续用新技术 I told them if they were gonna keep using the new techniques,
我想退出 I wanted out.
我不是唯一一个 大家都承受不住了 I wasn't the only one. Guys were choking up.
都在电邮里 It's all in the e-mails.
早在2001年11月 As early as November 2001,
参议员谢尔登·怀特豪斯 罗德岛州
中情局的法务团队传阅了一份报告 the CIA's legal team circulated a memorandum
描述了一种新的合法辩护 describing a novel legal defense
为他们可能涉及使用酷刑的人员脱罪 for their officers who might engage in torture.
不是吧 他们真的称之为酷刑吗 Come on. They actually called it torture?
中情局 The CIA?
他们忘了我们有法律禁止酷刑吗 They just forgot we have laws against that?
是的 长官 米切尔和杰森改其名为 Yes, sir. Mitchell and Jessen renamed it
"强化审讯"以帮助推广 "enhanced interrogation" to help sell it,
但中情局一个受押人都还没有的时候 but the Agency was talking about doing it
就在讨论那么做了 before they even had a single detainee.
参议员 我的问题是 My question, Senator, is:
中情局是怎么在还没囚犯时 How did the CIA know they needed to torture prisoners
就知道他们需要对囚犯施以酷刑 before they even had one?
这不是切尼和艾丁顿的主意吗 That didn't come from Cheney and Addington?
情况似乎恰恰相反 Seems like it happened the other way around.
中情局把这个项目带给布什政府 The CIA took it to the Bush White House
及法律顾问办公室的约翰·尤 and John Yoo at the Office of Legal Counsel.
现在情况是这样的 So, here's where we're at.
正如2340章所描述 酷刑罪 The crime of torture, as described in Section 2340,
法律顾问办公室 2002年7月
需要被告 即本案中的审讯者 requires that the defendant... in this case, an interrogator...
故意造成严重疼痛或痛苦 intends to cause severe pain or suffering.
但本案中 那不是审讯者的意图 But in this case, that's not the interrogator's intent.
没错 意图是获取情报 拯救美国人的生命 Right. The intent is to gain intel, save American lives.
可是约翰 万一审讯者采用的手段 But, John, what if the techniques the interrogator employs
还是会造成疼痛或痛苦呢 do nonetheless cause pain and suffering?
这怎么处理 How do we deal with that?
关键在于"严重疼痛或痛苦" Well, the key phrase is "severe pain or suffering."
但其实2340章从未定义"严重"一词 But 2340 never actually defines the term "severe."
我们在医保条例中找到了这个定义 We found this definition in a Medicare statute.
严重疼痛或痛苦指的是 Severe pain or suffering:
"让人有严重危险且难以忍受的 "acute symptoms that place the individual in serious jeopardy
急性症状" and are hard to endure."
意思是 Meaning?
要构成酷刑 To constitute torture,
造成的伤害必须达到器官衰竭 the damage done must rise to the level of organ failure,
身体机能损伤或死亡的程度 impairment of bodily function, or death.
所以基本上 如果有人死了 我们就做错了吗 So, basically, if someone dies, we're doing it wrong?
如果总统认为有必要 If the president deemed it necessary
碾碎一个孩子的睾丸 to... crush the testicles of a child
来阻止飞机撞向大楼 to stop a plane from crashing into a building,
以拯救美国人的生命 to save American lives,
没有法律或条约能阻止他 there is no law or treaty that could stop him.
我可以用同样的说法辩解 I can make the same argument for
挖出囚犯的眼睛或用酸浇他 gouging out a prisoner's eyes or dousing him with acid.
在我们看来 In our opinion,
如果它提供能拯救生命的独特情报 if it provides unique intelligence that saves lives,
且没有持续性伤害 and doesn't cause any lasting harm,
那么总统下令就是合法的 then it's legal for the president to order it.
"独特"指的是什么 What do we mean when we say "unique"?
无法通过其他方式获得的情报 Intelligence that couldn't have been obtained any other way.
你应该和白宫讨论过这一切吧 And you've discussed all of this with the White House, I assume?
还有呢 And?
他们告诉布什他们要怎么对待祖贝达了吗 Did they tell Bush what they were gonna do to Zubaydah?
-没有 -国家安全顾问赖斯 - No. - And National Security Advisor Rice...
她又在其中做了什么 where was she in all this?
国家安全顾问赖斯被告知了这个项目 National Security Advisor Rice was told about the program,
同时也被告知不要汇报总统 but she was also told the president would not be briefed.
谁让总统的国家安全顾问 Who tells the president's national security advisor
不要汇报总统 not to brief the president?
切尼和艾丁顿 Cheney and Addington.
根据中情局记录 布什直到2006年4月 According to CIA records, Bush wasn't told about the program
即四年后 才被告知这个项目 until April of 2006, four years later.
而且根据我们找到的记录 And the records we found state
总统终于获知项目时 that when the president was finally told about the program,
看到影像上一个受押人 he expressed discomfort with the image of a detainee
被拴在天花板上 穿着尿片 chained to the ceiling, wearing a diaper,
被逼排泄在自己身上 他表达了不适 and forced to go to the bathroom on himself.
你还要多久才能完成报告 丹 How long till you can get this thing done, Dan?
我们必须公之于众 We've got to get this out.
这个人呢 古尔·拉赫曼 What about this guy, Gul Rahman?
2002年11月在白沙瓦被捕 Captured in Peshawar, November 2002.
他不在关塔那摩 哪也没有他 He's not at Gitmo. He's-he's not anywhere.
古尔·拉赫曼 Gul Rahman.
古尔 Gul...
没有 他们没对委员会说起他 No. They didn't tell the committee about him.
他是24号受押人 He's detainee number 24.
古尔·拉赫曼
手脚被拷
使囚犯精神错乱
听觉超负荷
总部说他知道基地组织的行动细节 HQ says he knows operational detail about Al Qaeda.
粗暴摔倒
有窗口的金属门 墙上有锁链 摄像头 桶 墙底部有开口
中情局总部观察了寇博特羁押处的审讯
这家伙是个混蛋 The guy's an asshole.
钴蓝拘留点 2002年11月
用食物砸我们 威胁要杀了警卫 Threw his food at us, he threatened to kill the guards.
我已向总部申请批准 I've asked headquarters to approve the application
对该受押人使用强化审讯技术 of the enhanced measures for this detainee,
申请通过了 and the request has been approved.
好极了 我们还没能让他开口 Great. We haven't had any luck loosening him up.
快说 Come on!
让他在通道里跑个不停 Ran him up and down the hall,
把他打个半死 还是什么都不说 beat the crap out of him... nothing.
甚至尝试了叫"短拷"的手段 Even been trying this thing they call short shackling.
把双手拴在地板的螺栓上 Chain a dude's hands to a bolt on the floor.
把双脚也拴在同一螺栓上 Then you chain his feet to the same bolt.
农民好像把这个叫"五花大绑" Farmers call it hog-tying, I think.
他终于承认了一些事 He finally admitted to something.
承认了什么 What was that?
承认他是我们说的那个人 古尔·拉赫曼 That he was who we said he was: Gul Rahman.
你们首先要做的是剥夺他的掌控感 What you want to do first is take away his sense of control.
如果你们想 我可以花些时间展示给你们看 If you like, I could spend some time showing you
怎么通过强化审讯技术实现这一点 how to achieve this with the enhanced techniques.
很好 Great.
我们还有三十个囚犯要审 We got another 30 guys here to deal with.
我听说你告诉医生你感觉冷 I heard you told the doctor you were cold.
参议员 今早能和我谈几分钟吗 Senator, do you have a few minutes this morning?
当然 进来吧 丹 Absolutely. Come on in, Dan.
参议员需要到院内进行投票 The senator is needed on the floor for a vote.
等她五分钟 Give her five minutes.
你昨晚睡了吗 丹 Did you sleep last night, Dan?
参议员 有个囚犯死了 Senator, a prisoner died.
古尔·拉赫曼 Gul Rahman.
他们认为他可能效力于阿富汗军阀 They thought he was maybe working for an Afghan warlord
或者知道袭击的事 or that he knew something about an attack.
-是真的吗 -不 他们还没查出什么他就死了 - Did he? - No, he died before they found out
只查出了他的名字 anything besides his name.
他们有天晚上往他身上倒了冷水 Dumped cold water on him one night
第二天早晨发现他死在牢房里 and found him dead in his cell in the morning.
验尸结果是体温过低 The autopsy said hypothermia.
-你从哪知道的 -特别监察长的报告 - Where did you get this from? - Inspector general's report.
中情局自己也调查了古尔·拉赫曼的死亡 CIA did their own investigation into the death of Gul Rahman.
主管的职员被推荐 The officer in charge was recommended
获得绩效奖金 for a performance bonus.
他们提拔了他 They promoted him.
他还在外执行任务 He's still out there in the field.
你是在指控中情局谋杀吗 丹 Well, are you accusing the CIA of murder, Dan?
因为我听起来就是这样的 Because that sounds like where this is going.
我们有证据证明副局长 We have proof the deputy director
指导了主管职员如何掩盖事实 coached the officer in charge how to cover up what happened,
让他谨慎处理所记录的内容 told him to be careful what he put in writing.
如果他们遵循了标准操作流程 So, why would they need to cover it up
为什么还要掩盖事实呢 if they were following standard operating procedure?
他们为什么不告诉委员会 Why didn't they tell the committee?
他们为什么不告诉你 Why didn't they tell you?
我要亲自审查一下这些 I'm gonna need to review all this personally.
非常令人不安 It's very disconcerting.
"令人不安" "非常令人不安" "Disconcerting"? "Very disconcerting"?
丹 这件事你要小心 Dan, you need to be careful here.
你掺入了个人情感 You're getting emotionally involved.
他们杀了人 而没人被问责 They fucking killed a guy, and nobody was held accountable?
我们不确定他是不是恐怖分子 W-We don't know he was a terrorist.
-我们连他的名字都不确定 -我理解 - We barely even know his name. - I understand.
而你需要理解的是 And what you need to understand is that
出现在报告里的是她的名字 而不是你的 her name is going on this report, not yours.
参议院职员无需参加改选 Senate staff doesn't have to run for reelection,
但她需要 but she does.
他们的法律文书说强化审讯技术不会造成持续伤害 Their legal argument said EITs wouldn't cause lasting harm.
那古尔·拉赫曼什么时候能活过来 So how long is Gul Rahman gonna be dead for?
你们看了这份帕涅塔的审查报告了吗 Are you guys seeing this Panetta review?
突然蹦出来了 It just showed up.
我不明白 I don't understand.
中情局似乎进行了自己的调查 Looks like the CIA did their own investigation.
帕涅塔局长高级审查团队 引渡和拘留组项目
证明了我们发现的一切 It confirms everything we've been finding.
你打算怎么处理它 So, what are you gonna do with it?
希望用不上 Hopefully, nothing.
我找特别检察官杜伦 Special Prosecutor Durham, please?
帕涅塔审查报告 最高机密 敏感信息隔离
我已经留言几次了 I've already left several messages.
我是情报委员会的丹·琼斯 It's Dan Jones again from the Intelligence Committee.
你好吗 How are you?
很好 我只是想再确认一下 Good. I just wanted to check in again to see
特别检察官有没有时间 if the special prosecutor is available
见面商谈对中情局的调查 to meet on the CIA probe.
可以是非正式的 我只是想交换一下意见 It can be off the record. I just want to compare notes.
是 就是这个号码 谢谢 Yeah, same number. Thank you.
我们得回想一下 You know, we got to think back
911事件后的那段时期 to the period after 9/11.
我们都不知道是谁袭击了我们 We didn't even know who hit us.
我们都不知道哈立德·谢赫·穆罕默德 We didn't know that Khalid Sheikh Mohammed was
是911事件的主谋 the mastermind of 9/11
以及基地组织的行动指挥官 or the operational commander of Al Qaeda.
然后我们开始围捕这些恐怖分子 And then we started rounding up these terrorists.
军人还是平民 恐怖分子审判辩论
我们抓到了阿布·祖贝达 We caught Abu Zubaydah.
我们抓到了拉姆齐·比纳尔什布和哈立德 We caught, uh, Ramzi bin al-Shibh and KSM.
而这些人在中情局的审讯下 And these guys provided us information under questioning
为我们提供了情报 阻止了很多起恐怖袭击 by the CIA that stopped a number of terrorist attacks.
他们计划炸毁 They were pl-planning to blow up
美国在巴基斯坦卡拉奇的领事馆 the U.S. consulate in Karachi, Pakistan.
-见鬼 -他们计划炸毁 - Shit. - They were planning to blow up
我们在吉布提的海军陆战队营地 our Marine camp in Djibouti...
-早上好 -哈立德·谢赫·穆罕默德 - Good morning. - Khalid Sheikh Mohammed was
1995年在纽约被控告试图炸毁飞机 indicted in New York for trying to blow up airplanes in 1995.
中情局早就知道他了 The CIA already knew about him.
他们知道他与本·拉登关系密切 They knew he was close to bin Laden.
在祖贝达供出他之前 他们就知道他了 They knew about him before Zubaydah ever identified him.
你在这里多久了 How long have you been here?
还有 根据这份电报 待了几个小时 Also, according to this cable... a few hours...
伊斯兰堡的一名中情局职员 a CIA officer in Islamabad
开始审讯一名他们口中的"线人X" began working someone they call Asset X.
X自称能直接接触到哈立德 X claimed to have direct access to KSM,
但最终因为想要钱而被赶走 but was eventually turned away when he asked for money.
-多少钱 -几千块 - How much money? - Few thousand bucks.
两年后 他们一直拖着他 Two years later, after they've been putting him off,
拖着他 最终还是给了 putting him off, putting him off, they finally pay him,
然后他几乎立刻就发短信 and almost immediately he sends a text
给他的中情局上线说 "我和哈立德在一起" to his CIA handler saying: "I'm with KSM."
与水刑毫无关系 It had nothing to do with the waterboard.
-早上好 -早上好 - Good morning. - Good morning.
哈立德·谢赫·穆罕默德
对象 穆赫塔尔
计划袭击
受过训练的劫机者
面墙站立
剥夺睡眠
大声播放音乐
依旧不说
关键的威胁信息
拘留
蓝色拘留点
2003年3月
一 二 三 One, two, three,
四 五 六 four, five, six...
你在美国的同伙是谁 Who are you working with in the U.S.?
七 八 九 十 十一 ...seven, eight, nine, 10, 11...
你的孩子在我们手上 We have your kids!
十二 十三 十四 十五 ...12, 13, 14, 15,
十六 十七 16, 17...
只要你开口 我们就停手 It will stop if you talk!
下一次袭击在哪 Where is the next attack?
金丝雀码头 金丝雀码头 Canary Wharf! Canary Wharf!
好的 问题是这样的 Okay, here's the problem.
我们已经知道了 We already know about
希斯罗与金丝雀码头的袭击计划 the Heathrow and Canary Wharf plots.
他也知道 他记在笔记本上了 He knows that. It's in his goddamn notebook.
我们问的是在美国的袭击计划 不是伦敦的 We asked about plots in the U.S., not London.
-他又在糊弄你 -说实话 - He's fucking with you again. - To be honest,
我从未见过像这个家伙这么顽固的人 I've never met a resistor like this guy.
他真很能扛 He's a super resistor.
他骗了你 好让你住手 He lied to you to make you stop.
他只交代我们已经掌握的情报 He just tells us shit he knows we already have.
他只交代了这些 That's all he does.
那这就是我们所了解到的 Then that's what we're learning.
水刑让我们知道了这些信息 That's what the waterboard is giving us.
我们现在知道他在撒谎了 We now know he's lying.
难道不是应该帮我们得知真相吗 I thought it was meant to give us the truth.
那真相就是 他在撒谎 And... the truth is he's lying.
总部让我们再继续审 Headquarters says we go again.
审讯的领导 The chief of interrogations
下令为哈立德的直肠补液 ordered the rectal rehydration Of KSM,
并不是出于健康原因 not for health reasons,
而是为了展现对受押人的彻底控制 but as a way of showing total control over the detainee.
尽管直肠补液这项技术 Even though rectal rehydration was never
从未受到许可 an approved technique.
彻底控制难道不是把他绑在墙上 Total control isn't chaining the guy to the wall,
让他好几天不睡觉 并威胁他的家人吗 keeping him awake for days, and threatening his family?
需要往他的屁股里插管子吗 You need to shove a tube up his ass?
你的下半辈子就要这样度过 This right here is the rest of your life
除非你跟我们说实话 unless you start telling the truth.
然后他们重新对他施以水刑 Then they went back to waterboarding him.
"当一名医务人员按压哈立德的..." "When a medical officer pressed on KSM's..."
-等等 你说到哪了 -下一页 - Wait. Where are you? - Next page.
"当一名医生按压哈立德的腹部时 "When a medical officer pressed on KSM's abdomen,
他的口鼻中喷出了水" he expressed water from his mouth and nose."
所以他把所有的水都吞了下去 So, he was swallowing all the water.
"3月17日 "On March 17th,
水刑技术开始进化" the waterboard technique began to evolve."
审讯者用手控制哈立德 Interrogators used their hands to maintain
将水不断注入他的口鼻 a pool of water over KSM's nose and mouth.
你在美国国内的同伙是谁 Who are the operatives inside the U.S.?
伊萨 伊萨 Issa... Issa...
伊萨·阿尔布列塔尼 Issa al-Britani.
下一次袭击在哪 Where is the next attack?
蒙大拿 M-Montana.
我们问出来了 We got something.
哈立德告诉审讯者 KSM told interrogators
他派了阿布·伊萨·阿尔布列塔尼到美国 he sent Abu Issa al-Britani to the U.S.
招募蒙大拿的非裔美籍穆斯林 to recruit African American Muslims in Montana
引爆加油站以及制造森林火灾 to blow up gas stations and start forest fires.
蒙大拿 Montana?
蒙大拿的穆斯林 Muslims in Montana?
联调局对此也表示质疑 The FBI had serious doubts as well.
之后 哈立德承认他交代的是 Later, KSM admitted he just told them
他们想听的话 以免受酷刑 what they wanted to hear to make it stop.
他们从他那里问出可靠的情报了吗 So, did they get anything actionable from him at all?
能拯救性命的那种 Anything that saved lives?
他们对他用了183次水刑 然后得出结论 They waterboarded him 183 times, and then concluded
哈立德可能从未屈服 没说一句实话 KSM may never be forthcoming or honest.
他们从他嘴里听到的一切 Everything they got from him
要么是谎言 要么就是已经获取的情报 was either a lie or something they already had.
好吧 我首先要问 Well, okay, so my first question is:
如果水刑有用 为什么要用183次 If it works, why do you need to do it 183 times?
或许等报告出来后 Maybe when the report comes out,
人们都会明白这一点 people will finally see that.
我们还是操心怎么把报告写对 写完吧 Well, let's worry about getting it right, getting it done.
改变世界的话以后再说 We can worry about changing the world later.
抱歉 我迟到了 Sorry I'm late.
没关系 It's okay.
-几乎没合眼 -来点咖啡吗 - Barely slept. - Want some coffee?
我能问你点事情吗 Hey, can I ask you something?
你有没有做过梦 You ever, uh, have dreams,
梦到报告里的东西 you know, about the stuff that's in the report?
有过 我梦到过我溺水了 Yeah. I have one where I'm drowning.
我的手脚不能动弹 也无法呼吸 I can't move my arms or legs. I can't breathe.
-然后我就醒了 -我昨晚梦到 - That wakes me up. - Last night I dreamt
我被关在一个禁闭盒里 I was trapped in one of those confinement boxes.
他们把我留在那 They just left me there.
你是丹尼尔·琼斯吗 Daniel Jones, right?
-我们认识吗 -我只是想当面告诉你 - Do I know you? - I just wanted to tell you to your face
你和那份报告都是垃圾 that I think you and that report are garbage.
-你说什么... -你又不在场 - Excuse me... - You weren't there,
所以你不知道哪种手段有效 哪种无效 so you don't know what worked and what didn't
不知道我们面对的是什么人 or what we were up against.
你或许没意识到 但我们是想 You may not realize, but we were trying
保护这个国家不被那些人毁掉 to protect this country from people who want to destroy
保护我们所相信的一切 everything we believe in.
你或许没意识到 You may not realize it,
但我们要做的也是同样的事 but we're trying to do the exact same thing.
你的狗屁报告永远都无法问世 Your bullshit report will never see the light of day.
我找特别检察官杜伦 Special Prosecutor Durham, please.
我是丹·琼斯 再次打来 It's Dan Jones, calling again
询问司法部对中情局的调查 about the Justice Department investigation of the CIA.
我们真的得见一面 We really need to meet.
是吗 You have?
好吧 他们有什么发现吗 Okay, what are their findings?
该死 Fuck!
什么都没有吗 Nothing?
一次起诉都没有吗 No indictments at all?
没有针对何塞·罗德里格斯和吉娜·海斯佩尔 No charges against Jose Rodriguez or Gina Haspel
销毁录像带的指控吗 for destroying the tapes.
没有针对中情局使用酷刑的指控 Nothing against the CIA for torturing people.
没有针对吉姆·帕维特或其他人 Nothing against Jim Pavitt and the others
提供错误信息的指控 什么都没有 for providing misinformation, nothing at all.
司法部表示他们没有足够的可采信证据 DOJ says they don't have enough admissible evidence
来给任何人定罪 to convict anyone.
你去找承包商 他们却受到保护 You go after the contractors, and they're indemnified.
你去找反恐中心主任 You go after the head of Counterterrorism,
他只会说他是在执行 and he'd just say he was following orders
中情局局长的命令 from the CIA director.
你去找局长 他... You go after the director, and he...
他就会把总统搬出来 well, he would just cite the president.
白宫就会声称这涉及国家安全 Then the White House would claim national security.
司法部至少分享了他们的发现吧 DOJ at least share what they found?
没有 No.
他们什么都不肯交出来 They won't turn anything over.
现在只有我们在调查这件事了 We're the only ones still looking at this.
约翰·哈特的证词
丹 Dan?
丹 Dan.
你知道在1978年 You know a CIA officer
一位中情局职员在国会 testified before Congress in 1978 regarding the use of
就在拉丁美洲使用肉体强迫审讯技术一事作证吗 coercive physical interrogation techniques in Latin America?
这位职员说使用这些技术得到的是 And the officer said the techniques result
错误答案 并已证明无效 in false answers and have proven to be ineffective.
在拉丁美洲之前 他们在越南也这样做 And before Latin America, they did it in Vietnam.
丹 我要跟你说件事 Dan, I need to tell you something.
他们知道没用 他们却继续用 They knew it didn't work and they did it again.
连自己人的话都不听 Don't even listen to their own fucking people.
我要退出这起调查了 I'm leaving the study.
我得到了一个工作机会 我无法拒绝 I... I got a job offer, and I can't turn it down.
抱歉 但是你没发现这件事对你的影响吗 I'm sorry, but don't you see what this is doing to you?
对我们所有人的影响 To all of us?
我的孩子们都在家里成长 I mean, my kids are at home growing up,
而我就在这里读他们是如何把电钻 and I'm down here reading about how they put a power drill
钻进一个人脑子里 他们是如何 against one guy's head and-and how they pulled
把另一个人的胳膊拉脱臼的 another guy's arms out of his sockets.
我就是这样度过我的周日 And I just... this is how I'm spending my Sundays.
还有我的周六的 And my Saturdays.
我每天都是这样过的 This is how I spend every day.
我做不下去了 I just... I-I-I-I can't.
我会在感恩节后离开 I'm gonna leave after Thanksgiving.
好的 我理解 好的 Okay. I understand. Okay.
感恩节 Thanksgiving.
那我们...我们还有几个月时间 That gives us... that gives us a couple months.
丹 现在已经十一月了 Dan, it's November.
下周就到感恩节了 Thanksgiving is next week.
目前为止我们写了多少页了 几千页吗 How many pages have we written so far? Thousands?
我们甚至不知道报告会不会公布 We don't even know if this is ever gonna come out.
录像带调查就从未公布 The tapes investigation never did.
仍然是机密 It's still classified.
你刚刚自己也说了 You just said it yourself:
中情局在1978年就知道这方法没用 The CIA knew this shit didn't work in 1978,
也没能阻止他们继续用 and it didn't stop them from doing it again.
我们已经在这里两年了 丹 Look, we've been down here for two years, Dan,
待在这个地下室 in this basement.
没人在等我们出来 Nobody's waiting for us to come out.
最高机密 没收
照片
战争罪
中情局
阿布格莱布监狱
媒体
刊登照片
侵犯人权
残忍
异乎寻常
2004年4月底
这些令人震惊的照片显示美军 shocking photos that apparently show U.S. troops
伊拉克战争 令人震惊的照片
2004年4月
虐待巴格达郊外监狱的受押人 abusing detainees in a prison outside Baghdad.
我们有麻烦了 We have a problem.
我和总统都公开表示 Both myself and the president have gone on record
我们不使用酷刑 saying we do not torture people.
他刚刚对联合国的支持酷刑受害者国际日 He just made a statement for the U.N.'s goddamn
发表了声明 Day in Support of Victims of Torture.
他怎么说的 What-what did he say?
"美国不使用酷刑 "The United States does not torture.
这违背了我们的法律和价值观 It's against our laws and it's against our values.
我没有授权过 我也不会授权" I have not authorized it, and I will not authorize it."
我不确定我们俩会面临什么下场 I'm not sure where that leaves either of us.
事情是这样的 So, here's the deal.
法律顾问办公室有个新律师 杰克·戈德史密斯 Some new lawyer over at OLC, Jack Goldsmith,
他说约翰·尤的备忘录有问题 is saying there are issues with the John Yoo memo.
法律问题吗 Legal issues?
是的 还有特别监察长的报告 Yeah, and there's the inspector general's report:
关于战争罪和酷刑的指控 allegations of war crimes and torture.
整个项目都被当成替罪羊了 Throws the whole program under the goddamn bus.
报告说了什么 What's it say?
"特别监察长认为强化审讯技术 "The inspector general finds that EITs are inconsistent
与美国在人权问题上的 with the public policy positions
公共政策立场不一致" the United States has taken regarding human rights,"
等等等等 blah, blah, blah.
"该项目在实施过程中 "The program, as implemented,
与中情局的描述大相径庭" 等等 diverges sharply from how the CIA has described," blah, blah.
"几乎没有证据表明水刑 "There is also little evidence that the waterboard
在获取信息方面是有效的" is effective in gaining information."
特尼特局长想暂停这个项目 Look, guys, Director Tenet wants to pause the program.
我在911事件的前几个月 You know, I retired from the Air Force
从空军退役 just a couple of months before 9/11.
服役了22年 22 years.
然后那天早上我醒来 And then I wake up that morning,
我打开新闻台 and I turn on the news and...
看到发生了什么 see what's happening.
很多人就继续回去喝咖啡吃玉米片了 A lot of people just went back to their coffee and cornflakes.
但吉姆是想做点什么 But Jim wanted to do something
来保护人们的安全 to keep people safe.
我们今天就去找国家安全委员会 We are going right back to the National Security Council today
要求重新认证该项目 and asking to have the program recertified,
尽可能认证更多审讯技术 as many techniques as possible.
我们有计划 We have a plan.
谢谢 谢谢 Thank you. Thank you.
2004年7月6日 美国国家安全顾问康多莉扎·赖斯 批准对受押人贾纳特·古尔 使用重新认证的强化审讯技术
琼斯 Jones.
好的 参议员 Yes, Senator.
在周日的脱口秀节目中 On the Sunday talk shows,
前国防部长唐纳德·拉姆斯菲尔德 former Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld
击毙奥萨马·本·拉登
和前副总统迪克·切尼表示 and former Vice President Dick Cheney argued
强化审讯技术在突袭本·拉登住所的行动中 enhanced interrogation techniques played a major role
起到了重要的指引作用 in leading up to the raid on bin Laden's compound.
不 不是的 事情不是这样的 No, that's not right. That's not what happened.
-那不是酷刑 -我会调查的 - It was not torture. - I'll look into it.
我强烈建议我们继续这样做 And, uh, I would strongly recommend that we continue it.
争议的核心是一种被称为水刑的审讯手段 At the heart of the controversy is a process called waterboarding.
仅限美国参议院情报委员会职员进入
好吧 中情局是这样说的 Okay, here's what the CIA is claiming:
他们对受押人使用了强化审讯技术后发现了本·拉登 They got bin Laden after using EITs against detainees.
他们说这一切都始于2002年阿布·祖贝达 They say it all started in 2002 with Abu Zubaydah
和一个叫做"调解人利雅得"的受押人 and a detainee they called "Riyadh the Facilitator,"
是他向阿布·艾哈迈德·科威特通风报信 who tipped them off to Abu Ahmed al-Kuwaiti,
他与本·拉登有联系 who had ties to bin Laden.
事情不是这样吗 That's not what happened?
事实是 在中情局抓获任何受押人之前 The truth is the CIA was on al-Kuwaiti's phones,
就已经监控了科威特的手机和电邮 得知了他的身份 e-mails, identity, long before they captured any detainees.
在他们有强化审讯技术项目之前 Before they even had an EIT program.
祖贝达告诉我们科威特和本·拉登没有关系 Zubaydah told us al-Kuwaiti had nothing to do with bin Laden.
和哈立德以及其他人也没有关系 Same with KSM and-and the others.
而现在中情局前局长迈克尔·海登 But now we have former CIA Director Michael Hayden
在广播里说这些都是通过强化审讯技术得来的 on the radio saying this all came from EITs.
而前司法部长穆凯西说 And former Attorney General Mukasey is out there saying
哈立德在遭受水刑后就什么都招了 KSM broke like a dam after waterboarding.
他在哪里说的 Where is he saying that?
《华尔街日报》 我找到了一个备忘录 Wall Street Journal. I found a memo.
几个月前的 三月的 It's from a few months back, in March.
叫"公开推出" It's called "The Public Roll-out."
备忘录说中情局希望他们的公关人员 The memo states the Agency wanted their PR people
将突袭本·拉登和用强化审讯技术获取的情报联系起来 to connect the bin Laden raid to intel obtained via EITs
那时行动还没进行 before it even happened.
所以 只要中情局抓到了本·拉登 So... if the CIA got bin Laden,
那谁还在乎他们还做了什么呢 then who cares what else it did?
只要他们拯救了人命 就不需要被问责 If it saved lives, there's no need for accountability.
没错 他们在这个项目上骗了布什 Exactly. They lied to Bush about the program.
现在他们又在骗奥巴马总统 Now they're lying to President Obama.
这个关于本·拉登和强化审讯技术作用的文件 This document about bin Laden and, uh, the role of EITs,
不是真的 it just isn't true.
你想要我给白宫打电话吗 You want me to get you the White House?
打吧 Let's do that.
我们很清楚 It's very clear to us
强化审讯技术没有提供关于本·拉登的情报 the EITs did not lead to bin Laden.
中情局歪曲了这次行动 The CIA is misrepresenting the operation.
你肯定发现了吧 I'm sure you see that, don't you?
我不太明白 参议员 I'm not sure I understand, Senator.
行动成功了 这才是关键 The mission was a success; That's the headline here.
这是我国历史上的关键时刻 This is a crucial moment in our nation's history.
我想确认中情局没有利用它 I want to make certain that the Agency isn't manipulating it
来美化他们过去的行为 to sanitize their own past actions.
我会将你的担忧转告给国家安全顾问 参议员 I will let the national security advisor know your concerns, Senator.
-谢谢 -谢谢 范斯坦参议员 - Thank you. - Thank you, Senator Feinstein.
就这样吗 That's it?
他们不在乎这件事是假的吗 They don't care the story is wrong?
我认为我们不能指望白宫的支持了 Well, I don't think we can look to the White House for support.
刚刚发生了什么 What the hell just happened?
中情局让总统得以连任了 The CIA just got the president reelected.
事情就是这样 That's what happened.
这是有史以来最为重大的追捕行动 It was the greatest manhunt of all time.
你以为你知道这个故事了 You think you know the story,
但请坐好 but hold on to your seats.
《猎杀本·拉登》 一部引人入胜的新电影 Zero Dark Thirty, the riveting new film,
讲述了无人知晓的 brings you the hunt for Osama bin Laden
追捕奥萨马·本·拉登的故事 as it has never been seen before.
到此为止了 这是最后一个了 This is it. The last guy we have.
第119号 穆罕默德·拉希姆 Number 119: Muhammad Rahim,
2007年六月被捕 captured June 2007.
我们让拉希姆 We kept Rahim awake
2007年7月
138个小时没有睡觉 for 138 hours straight.
使用了立正抓领 Used the attention grasp,
控头技术 强迫流食 facial hold, dietary manipulation.
拳击腹部 压力姿势 Abdominal slaps, stress positions.
我们甚至提出如果他合作 就给他一条毛巾 We even offered him a towel to wear if he cooperated.
他什么也没说 Gave us nothing.
他说如果我们伤害他 He said that, if we hurt him,
他就编造一些事情让我们住手 he'd just make things up to get us to stop.
然后他又说 任由我们处置 And then he said he was at our mercy
要杀要剐随便 and we could kill him if we wanted.
不能用水刑 继续审讯有什么用 What's the point of moving forward without the waterboard?
这就像打棒球没有球棒一样 It's like trying to play baseball without the bat.
我们已经审了他六十天 We've been going at him for 60 days now,
什么进展都没有 not getting anywhere.
问题是反恐中心没有给我们提供 The problem is that CTC hasn't given us
任何有利于审讯的情报 any good intel to question him about.
我们没有任何筹码 We don't have any leverage.
等等 你是心理学家 Hold on. You're the psychologists.
你说你会为我们获取情报 You told me you were gonna get us intel.
而现在你却说我们需要给你提供情报 Now you're saying we need to give it to you?
我想我们应该善待他一两周 I'm thinking we improve his treatment for a week or two,
给他一些希望 然后再狠狠地折磨他 give him some hope, and then we go back at him hard
制造一种无助感 and create a sense of helplessness.
或者我们可以试着策反他 Or we could try recruiting him.
跟他说 只要他肯开口 Tell him he can be a
就能成为中情局探员 CIA agent if he talks.
联调局就是这么干的 The FBI does that.
我们不是联调局 不会这么干 We're not the FBI. We don't do that.
科学的获取情报方式是 The way the science works is
只有在我们... we only get the intel after...
要怎么样 After what?
为什么这么多人在你们的审讯下 Why are so many of these guys still lying to us
还是对我们撒谎 after you work on them?
秘诀在哪里 Where's the special sauce?
你们必须做出效果 有效果才合法 You have to make this work. It's only legal if it works.
中情局对穆罕默德·拉希姆的审讯 The CIA's questioning of Muhammad Rahim
没有得出任何情报报告 resulted in zero intelligence reports.
2008年4月21日 中情局 On April 21, 2008, the Agency convened
对他的审讯进行了事后审查 an after-action review of his interrogation.
参议员 我想指出这是中情局第一次 Senator, I just want to point out that this is the first time
停下来评估该项目的有效性 the Agency stopped and evaluated the effectiveness of the program.
他们得出的结论是 在未来 And they concluded that, in the future,
中情局的审讯人员应使用建立友好关系的方法 CIA interrogators should use rapport building.
他们还建议向其它机构 They even suggested asking other agencies,
执法机关 甚至是其它国家 law enforcement, and even other countries
咨询有效的审讯方法 about effective interrogation methods.
这么说 So...
在过去的六年里 中情局的人 For the past six years, there's been a steady stream of CIA personnel...
包括局长 副局长和分析员 directors, deputies, analysts...
源源不断地过来跟我说 coming over here and telling me
强化审讯技术有多成功 what an amazing success EITs have been.
但没有一个人跟我提过这件事 Somehow not even one of them managed to mention that part.
总共有多少名受押人经历过这个项目 How many detainees have been through the program in total?
至少119名 At least 119.
中情局承认其中有四分之一的受押人 The Agency admits a quarter of them
本不应该被拘留 should never have been detained.
强化审讯技术项目从没对任何人奏效 The EIT program never worked, not on anyone.
公众及媒体禁止入内
今天 我们聚集在此批准 Today, we are gathered to approve
委员会对中情局拘留和审讯项目的调查报告 the committee's study of the CIA Detention and Interrogation Program.
我要感谢丹尼尔·琼斯 I would like to thank Daniel Jones
和他的小团队准备了这项报告 and his small staff who prepared this study.
书记员 请唱名表决 Clerk, would you call the roll?
-尤德尔先生 -赞成 - Mr. Udall? - Yay.
-鲁比奥先生 -反对 - Mr. Rubio? - Nay.
-洛克菲勒先生 -赞成 - Mr. Rockefeller? - Yay.
-沃纳先生 -赞成 - Mr. Warner? - Yay.
-布朗特先生 -反对 - Mr. Blunt? - Nay.
-康拉德先生 -赞成 - Mr. Conrad? - Yay.
-科茨先生 -反对 - Mr. Coats? - Nay.
-纳尔逊先生 -赞成 - Mr. Nelson? - Yay.
-里施先生 -反对 - Mr. Risch? - Nay.
-米库斯基先生 -赞成 - Ms. Mikulski? - Yay.
-布尔先生 -反对 - Mr. Burr? - Nay.
-怀登先生 -赞成 - Mr. Wyden? - Yay.
-斯诺女士 -赞成 - Ms. Snowe? - Yay.
-钱布里斯先生 -反对 - Mr. Chambliss? - Nay.
范斯坦女士 Ms. Feinstein?
赞成 Yay.
动议通过 The motion passes.
报告现在将送交中情局作最后评论 The report will now be sent to the CIA for final comments.
我 约翰·欧文·布伦南 I, John Owen Brennan,
庄严宣誓 保证如实陈述真相 do solemnly swear to tell the truth, the full truth,
毫无隐瞒 上帝保佑 and nothing but the truth, so help me God.
谢谢 布伦南先生 Thank you, Mr. Brennan.
我很期待听到你的证词 I look forward to hearing your testimony.
今天我很荣幸 I am honored to appear before you today
能作为总统提名的中情局局长在此陈述 as the president's nominee for director of the CIA.
首先我想说 诚实与真诚 I'd like to say from the beginning that honesty... truthfulness...
是我在新泽西长大时 was a value inculcated in me growing up in New Jersey
我的父母欧文和多萝西反复灌输给我的价值观 by my parents, Owen and Dorothy.
人无完人 Now, none of us are perfect beings.
我并不完美 I am far from perfect.
但我将对委员会保持诚实 But I will be honest with this committee
并尽一切可能满足你们的合理需要和要求 and do everything possible to meet your legitimate needs and requirements.
布伦南先生 Mr. Brennan,
我一直认为 我们的政府对美国人民有义务 I've long believed that our government has an obligation
应当公开面对自己犯下的错误 to the American people to face its mistakes transparently,
帮助公众理解这些错误的性质 to help the public understand the nature of those mistakes,
并予以纠正 and to correct them.
强化审讯技术很残忍 The enhanced interrogation techniques were brutal,
也许最重要的是 它们并没有用 and, perhaps most importantly, they did not work.
中情局有责任 Now, the CIA has a responsibility
更正之前提供给 to correct any inaccurate information it provided
前任政府 司法部 to the previous White House, the Department of Justice,
国会和公众的任何不实信息 Congress and the public.
我的问题是 So, here's my question:
你是否同意中情局对此负有责任 Do you agree that the CIA has this responsibility?
希望你能回答是或否 And I'd appreciate a yes or no answer.
是的 参议员 Yes, Senator.
绝对有责任 Absolutely.
幕僚长办公室 Office of the chief of staff.
麦克多纳先生正在开会 Mr. McDonough is in a meeting right now.
全国广播公司新闻最新消息 《华尔街日报》民调显示 According to the latest NBC News/Wall Street Journal poll,
支持率
总统的支持率为百分之四十四 the president's approval rating is at 44%.
全国广播公司新闻 《华尔街日报》民调
比三月份增长了三个百分点 That's up three points since March...
打扰了 麦克多纳先生 Excuse me. Mr. McDonough.
布伦南局长来了 Director Brennan is here.
你来了 There he is.
-祝贺 局长先生 -谢谢 - Congratulations, Mr. Director. - Thank you.
欢迎 请进 谢谢 Welcome. Come on in. Thank you.
谢谢你和奥巴马总统 Thank you and thank President Obama.
我会向他转达 I'll let him know.
说到这个 Speaking of, uh,
他想让我问问你 是否有关于 he wanted me to ask you if there's any new information
4月29日无人机袭击的最新消息 on the drone strikes of April 29th?
我们可以确认基地组织的策划者 We can confirm that the Al Qaeda planner
阿布·所罗门·艾尔加扎里已被击毙 Abu Sulayman al-Jazairi has been killed.
不幸的是 我们还认为 Unfortunately, we also believe
有五到十名平民伤亡 that there were between five and ten civilian casualties.
见鬼 Shit.
我会转告总统 Well, I'll let the president know.
情报委员会的调查报告怎么样 What about the Intelligence Committee report?
我们得谈谈这件事 We need to talk about that.
约翰 我们让中情局在二月前 John, w-we gave the CIA until February
作出回应 现在已经五月了 to come up with its response; it's now May.
范斯坦参议员不停地给我打电话 I've got Senator Feinstein all over my phone sheet.
我不想催促你们 I don't want to be the one who has to push on this,
但总统非常想解决这件事情 but the president would really like to get this behind us.
然后呢 And?
我们承认 We acknowledge that
拘留和审讯项目存在缺陷 the Detention and Interrogation Program had shortcomings
中情局犯了错 and that the Agency made mistakes.
其中最严重的问题发生在早期 The most serious of those occurred early on
其根源在于我们没有做好准备 and stemmed from the fact that we were unprepared.
如大家所知 我们在一些关键问题上有分歧 Now, as you know, we part ways on some key points.
根据我们的审查 有迹象表明 According to our review, indications are that
对受押人 interrogations of detainees upon whom
进行的强化审讯 the enhanced interrogation techniques were used
确实得到了独特的情报 did produce unique intelligence
这帮助我们阻碍了袭击计划 that helped thwart attack plans,
抓获了恐怖分子 拯救了生命 capture terrorists, and saved lives.
不好意思 强化审讯技术所收集的情报... Excuse me, intelligence gathered from EITs...
这些情报继续为我们的反恐行动提供信息 And that intelligence continues to inform our counterterrorism efforts.
让我们找到了本·拉登 It led us to bin Laden.
不赞成这个项目是一回事 Now, it's one thing to disapprove of the program.
我愿闻其详 I-I welcome that conversation,
但要说我们对此处理不当 效率低下 but it's something else altogether
那就完全是另外一回事了 to say that it was mismanaged and ineffective.
不好意思 布伦南局长 Excuse me, Director Brennan.
报告基于中情局的记录 The report is based on CIA records.
中情局职员自称该项目无效 CIA officers themselves called it ineffective.
中情局职员 CIA officers?
你没有和该项目中的任何中情局职员谈过吧 Well, you didn't speak to any CIA officers in the program,
你有吗 丹 did you, Dan?
由于司法部的刑事调查 Your lawyers would not make them available to us
你们的律师不会让我们跟他们谈 because of the Department of Justice's criminal inquiry.
我们也不赞同该调查中对中情局 We also disagree with the study's characterization of
如何向国会 白宫和媒体汇报情况的描述 how the CIA briefed Congress, the White House and the press.
我们有文件可以证明汇报属实 Now, we have documentation that certainly proves that.
不好意思 先生 什么文件 Excuse me, sir, what documents?
如果局长指的是 If the director is referencing
我们没有见过的电报和邮件 cables or e-mails we were never shown,
那就违反了我们的协议 then that's a violation of our agreement.
一切资料都应该向我们提供 Everything was supposed to have been provided to us.
我们要让委员会进入 Do we just give the committee access
中情局的整个电脑系统吗 to the entire CIA computer system?
这就是所谓的协议吗 Is that where this goes?
丹要看每一封电邮 每一份文件 Dan gets to read every e-mail, gets to see every document?
是的 他要看每一份相关文件或电邮 Every relevant document or e-mail, yes.
我一直支持情报机构 I have always supported the intelligence community.
为了支持无人机项目 I broke with my own party
我与自己的政党分道扬镳 to support the drone program,
但这份报告非常清楚地表明 but what this report makes very clear
你们确实需要监督和问责 is a real need for oversight and accountability.
你们要求我们作出回应 我们做到了 You asked for our response, and we gave it to you.
我们反省了自己 We looked in the mirror.
我们的确犯了错 Now, we made mistakes.
项目存在弊端 这些弊端已得到解决 There were abuses, and those abuses have been addressed.
但我坚决不同意 But I-I vehemently disagree with the narrative
你们在报告中的说法 that you're trying to string together here.
它脱离了事情原委 It lacks context.
它没有准确地描述我们所做的工作 It does not paint an accurate picture of the work that was done.
走 Let's go.
参议员 报告上有约翰·布伦南的名字 Senator, John Brennan's name is in that report.
他当时是特尼特局长的幕僚长 He was Director Tenet's chief of staff
项目开始时 他是副执行局长 and then deputy executive director when the program started.
-他在中情局不断晋升 -他声称 - He grew up at the Agency. - He claims to have
-他反对过强化审讯技术项目 -哪里 - spoken out against the EIT program... - Where?
我花了五年时间看他们的电邮 I just spent five years looking at their e-mails.
从没找到任何信息表明这是真的 I never found anything to suggest that's true.
我们知道这并不容易 Well, we knew this wasn't going to be easy.
他们有自己的说法 并且会坚持下去 They have their own narrative, and they're gonna stick to it.
也许我们可以找到一个折中的办法 Maybe we could come up with some middle ground,
-找到一些共同语言 -我以为我们的工作 - find some common language. - I thought our job
是提供监督和进行问责 was to provide oversight and accountability,
而不是折中 not middle ground.
我问你个问题 I have a question for you.
你是为我工作还是为报告工作 Do you work for me or for the report?
我劝你好好想想再回答 And I'd encourage you to think about that before answering.
丹 Dan!
丹·琼斯 Dan Jones.
你在这啊 There he is.
瞧瞧你 参议院有史以来 Look at you, chief investigator
最大规模调查的首席调查员 of the largest study the Senate's ever conducted.
天呐 你最近怎么样 My God. How you doing?
很高兴看到你出来呼吸新鲜空气 It's good to see you in the fresh air.
-是啊 -说来好笑 - Yeah. - It's so funny.
我前几天晚上正好想到 I was just thinking the other night,
你还记得那时候你刚毕业 do you remember that time you came and saw me,
来找我的时候吗 right after you got out of school?
你说多积累点做情报的经验 You said go get intel experience,
等民主党在参议院东山再起 wait till the Dems got the Senate back.
看看你现在 And look at you now:
为参议院情报委员会工作 working for the Senate Intelligence Committee
为黛安·范斯坦工作 for Dianne Feinstein.
你之前跟我说你想带来改变 You told me once you wanted to make a difference.
我希望你还有那种机会 I hope you still get that chance.
-这是什么意思 -什么意思 - What does that mean? - What does that mean?
意思是 丹 It means, Dan,
不要再去管参议员调查中情局的事情了 get out of the senator's head about the CIA.
对你没有任何好处 You're not doing yourself any favors.
你读过报告了吗 Have you read the report?
七千页呢 丹 It's 7,000 pages, Dan.
圣经讲全人类的历史也没用那么多页 The Bible tells the history of mankind in less than that.
听着 伙计 Look, buddy,
我们会找中情局的人跟你面谈的 we're gonna get the CIA to sit down with you,
跟你讲讲他们的说法 tell you their side of the story.
你愿意听的话会有帮助的 It would help if you would listen.
这项调查引导读者去相信 The study seems to most seriously diverge
中情局向行政部门和国会 from the facts by asking the reader to believe
隐瞒信息 the CIA withheld information
这严重偏离事实 from the executive branch and Congress.
我们希望将那些内容从报告里删除 We'd like to see that removed from the report.
2004年阿布格莱布监狱的照片被曝光后 After the photos of Abu Ghraib came out in 2004,
麦克劳林副局长去过国会 Deputy Director McLaughlin appeared before Congress,
在你面前声称中情局没有被授权 in front of you, and said the CIA is not authorized
去做那些照片上的任何事情 to do anything like what you've seen in those photos.
但他们做的事情比这还要恶劣 But what they were doing was even worse.
然后在2005年 洛克菲勒参议员 Then in 2005, Senator Rockefeller
要求审查这个项目 called for a review of the program,
反恐中心副主任 and the deputy chief of Counterterrorism
对审查的走向感到紧张 got nervous where that might lead.
他给高层领导发了消息 So he sent a message to senior leadership
讨论了控制局势的必要性 discussing the need to manage the situation.
他说 "我们要么出去宣传 要么会被重创" He said, "We either get out and sell, or we get hammered.
国会看了之后 会削弱我们的权力 Congress reads it, cuts our authorities,
削减我们的预算 messes up our budget.
我们要确保 We need to make sure
人们对我们的所为印象是积极的" the impression of what we do is positive."
出自反恐中心副主任之口 This is the deputy chief of Counterterrorism.
这些内容都保留 That all stays in.
我们坚决反对对于 We fundamentally disagree with the assertion
这个项目管理和执行不当 that the program was poorly managed and executed
以及不合格的职员施加残忍的条件 and that unqualified officers imposed brutal conditions,
使用未经批准的技术并且很少受到追责的陈词 used unapproved techniques, and were rarely held accountable.
那米切尔和杰森呢 What about Mitchell and Jessen?
米切尔的博士论文写的是饮食和运动 Mitchell's PhD thesis was on diet and exercise
和控制高血压的关系 for controlling hypertension.
杰森的学位论文是关于家庭疗法的 Jessen's dissertation was on family therapy,
叫什么家庭雕刻 something called family sculpting,
就是捏一堆代表家人的泥人 where you make clay figures of your family members.
-他们拿了多少钱 -他们对于现实审讯 - No. How much were they paid? - They had no experience
没有任何经验 in real-world interrogations.
他们的话没有任何科学依据 No science to back up their claims.
他们还被允许 They were allowed to assess
丝毫没有科学依据地 the effectiveness of their own program
评价他们自己项目的有效性 without providing any scientific evidence.
美国纳税人 How much in total
一共给了他们多少钱 did the U.S. Taxpayers give them for their work?
超过八千万美元 Over $80 million.
局里还反对这个 The Agency also disagrees that
拘留和审讯项目没有产出 the Detention and Interrogation Program did not produce
可以瓦解袭击计划和拯救性命的 unique intelligence that disrupted plots
独特情报的说法 and saved lives.
例如 荷西·帕迪拉的身份 For instance, the identity of José Padilla,
"脏弹人" the "Dirty bomber."
如果我们没有阻止帕迪拉 If we hadn't stopped Padilla,
现在这一整片区域可能还暴露在辐射里 this entire area would be radioactive today.
荷西·帕迪拉 José Padilla!
帕迪拉是在网上找到做脏弹的教程的 Padilla found the instructions for his dirty bomb online,
在一篇叫"制作和拥有一个氢弹 in-in an article entitled "Making and owning an H-bomb
是真正美国人寻求的挑战"的文章里 is the kind of challenge real Americans seek."
里面说"找到两桶铀 It says, "Fill two buckets with uranium
然后在头顶摇晃 越快越好" and swing them above your head as fast as possible."
那就是个笑话 It was a joke.
就现在看来 As far as we can tell,
他们声称来源于强化审讯技术的所有情报 everything they attribute to EITs they already had,
都是通过其他来源 其他国家 其他方法 from other sources, from foreign governments,
已经得到的情报 from other methods.
他们声称拯救了生命 They claim they saved lives, but what they really did
但其实只是让人不能起诉 was make it impossible to prosecute
像哈立德一样的刽子手 因为如果他们的 a mass murderer like KSM, because if what we did to him
所作所为在法庭上暴露出来 这个案子就完了 ever came out in a court of law, the case is over.
那家伙策划了911事件 The guy planned 9/11,
没有去蹲一辈子监狱 and instead of going to jail for the rest of his life,
反而被中情局变成了我们还在打的 the CIA turned him into a recruiting tool
战争的征兵状 for a war we're still fighting.
别再跟他们面谈了 Stop meeting with them.
你编写的这个文件很出色 This is a remarkable document you've created.
真的 Truly.
它会成为永存的历史 It will provide an enduring history,
无论它公布与否 whether it comes out or not.
什么意思 "无论它公布与否" What does that mean, "W-whether it comes out or not"?
她什么意思 What does she mean?
什么意思 What does that mean?
我们在这上面快花了五年了 We've been working on this thing for nearly five years.
是 但还是我们的一面之词 Yes, and it is still our word against theirs.
她需要的不止这些 She's gonna need more than that.
我是琼斯 This is Jones.
丹 我是埃文·坦纳 Hey, Dan, this is Evan Tanner.
我听到流言说报告可能不会公开了 I hear rumors the report might not be coming out now.
中情局有很大的意见 A lot of pushback from the Agency.
-他们说"有瑕疵" -谁告诉你的 - They're calling it "flawed." - Who told you that?
丹 我是《纽约时报》的 Dan, I'm the national security reporter
国家安全记者 for The New York Times.
你有什么想法吗 Do you have any thoughts?
流言不是我该谈论的 It's not my place to talk about rumors.
不 我想你也不会 No, I didn't think you would.
就是想问问你想不想作出评论 I was wondering if you might want to comment.
可以不公开身份 It can be off the record.
我觉得我们能互相帮助 I just think we can help each other here.
你知道我不能这么做 You know I can't do that.
关于卡洛琳·卡拉斯 我们了解的情况是 And here's what we know about Caroline Krass:
她在行政部门干了二十年 20 years in the executive branch,
包括了她在法律顾问办公室 including the Office of Legal Counsel
和约翰·尤共事的日子 where she worked with John Yoo.
各位 她的任职已经板上钉钉了 Guys, this confirmation's a done deal.
我们阻止不了 We're not gonna stop it.
但是这是个公开听证会 我觉得 But it is a public hearing, and it just seems like
有机会可以说点什么 there's an opportunity to say something.
你想说什么 参议员 Wh-What are you looking for, Senator?
或许是可以推进这个调查 I don't know, something to move the study forward,
让我们打破僵局的东西 to break us out of this stalemate.
有什么主意吗 Any ideas?
参议员 有一份文件 Senator, there is a document.
帕涅塔审查报告 最高机密 敏感信息隔离
你睡过觉吗 兄弟 You ever sleep, bro?
我以前会睡 I used to.
后来妨碍工作了 Got in the way of work.
包里有任何物品包含中情局职员 Anything in that bag contain the real names of CIA officers,
线人或合作伙伴的真名 assets or partners, or any information
或任何会违反 that would be in violation of the agreement between
中央情报局和美国参议院之间协议的信息吗 the Central Intelligence Agency and the United States Senate?
-晚安 杰伊 -你也是 丹 - Have a good night, Jay. - You, too, Dan.
丹尼尔·J·琼斯 首席调查员
委员会会议正式开始 The committee will come to order.
今天 我们来参加卡洛琳·卡拉斯 Today, we are gathered for the confirmation hearing
担任中情局首席法律顾问的任职听证会 of Caroline Krass to be general counsel of the CIA.
欢迎 卡拉斯女士 Welcome, Ms. Krass.
能来到委员会面前我很荣幸 I'm honored to be here before the committee,
借此机会我想感谢我的家人 and I'd like to take this moment to acknowledge my family
谢谢他们的支持 and thank them for their support.
谢谢 Thank you.
开始之前 我想提醒大家 Before we begin, I would like to remind members
不要讨论机密的话题 not to discuss classified topics
或是提出需要机密答案的问题 or ask questions which require a classified answer.
说完这些 下面请尤德尔参议员发言 With that said, I turn to Senator Udall.
卡拉斯女士 很高兴又见到你了 Ms. Krass, nice to see you again.
我们上周有机会坐下来 We had a chance to sit down last week
谈谈参议院对于 and discuss the Senate's study
拘留和审讯项目的调查 on the Detention and Interrogation Program.
你跟我说觉得那个调查很晦涩 You told me you found the study to be hard reading.
同样是上周 出现了一些文章 Also, last week, a number of articles appeared
讨论批准委员会这项调查的投票 discussing the one-year anniversary
已经过去了一年的时间 of the vote to approve the committee's study.
有一篇文章指出 And in one of those articles,
中情局声称发现了重大错误 the CIA claimed to have found significant errors.
我得告诉你 我认为这种说法不准确 Now, I got to tell you, I don't believe that is accurate.
事实上 我比任何时候都更确信 In fact, I'm more confident than ever
委员会调查在事实上的准确性 in the factual accuracy of the committee's study.
我再重申一次 我比任何时候都更确信 I want to say that again: I'm more confident than ever.
中情局对于强化审讯技术项目进行过自我审查 It appears that the CIA performed their own study of the EIT program,
是由前局长帕涅塔发起的 initiated by former Director Panetta.
那份审查的发现 And the findings in that review
与我们委员会的报告完全一致 are entirely consistent with our committee's report,
但是令人惊讶的是 but amazingly conflicts with
跟中情局对报告的官方回应并不一致 the CIA's official response to that report.
为什么一个中情局内部的 So, why is a review the CIA conducted internally,
从来没有提交国会的审查 and never revealed to Congress,
跟中情局对于这份报告的官方回应截然不同 so different from the CIA's formal response to the committee's report?
你能回答吗 Do you have an answer for that?
现在不能 not at this time.
如果我想让公众知道帕涅塔审查 If I wanted the public to know about the Panetta review,
我早就自己告诉他们了 I would have told them myself.
我们听说共和党要 We hear that the Republicans
严厉批评尤德尔的讲话 are gonna censure Udall for that performance.
但是审查证明了我们的观点 But the review proves our point.
他们跟我们的发现是一样的 They found the same things we did.
中情局不知道如何或者在哪里拘人 The Agency didn't know how or where to hold people,
也不知道怎么审讯人 didn't know how to interrogate people,
但更重要的是 中情局确实把审查报告给我们了 and, more importantly, the CIA did give it to us.
我不知道是意外 I don't know if it was an accident
还是有告密者 or it was a whistle-blower.
如果有告密者 Well, if it was a whistle-blower,
你刚刚就暴露他们了 you may have just exposed them.
更别说你自己了 Not to mention yourself.
有发现了 We got something here.
局长要我今天以 The director has asked me here today
中情局法律顾问的身份过来 in my capacity as Agency legal counsel.
我们讨论的话题会产生重大的影响 What we have to discuss has serious implications.
好吧 All right.
我们有证据表明 We have proof that the staff
参议院情报委员会的职员 of the Senate Intelligence Committee
非法入侵了中情局的电脑网络 illegally gained access to the CIA's computer network
并获取了机密文件 and obtained classified documents.
什么样的证据 What kind of proof?
我们在丹尼尔·琼斯的电脑中 We found the document in question
发现了这一机密文件 on Daniel Jones's computer.
我们并未将其提供给他或委员会 We did not provide it to him or to the committee.
如果他没有入侵我们的系统 他是怎么取得的 If he didn't hack us, how did it get there?
我们认为琼斯和他的团队应该受到处分 We feel that Jones and his team need to be disciplined.
应该把他们立即开除 Immediate dismissal is in order,
我认为至少应该如此 at a minimum, I would think.
约翰 你是说你入侵了美国参议院的 John, are you saying that you broke into the computer system
电脑系统吗 of the United States Senate?
我们没给过你们那份文件的权限 We never gave you clearance on that document.
那是机密文件 你们却选择将其公开 It was classified, yet you chose to make it public.
我们已经把我们的调查及其结果 We've made our investigation and our findings
通知了白宫 known to the White House.
你在逗我吧 You're fucking kidding me.
他们说我入侵了 They're saying I broke into
世界上最为机密的电脑系统 the most top secret computer system in the world?
-布伦南和伊斯曼来了 -伊斯曼 - Brennan and Eastman came over... - Eastman?
伊斯曼的名字在报告里出现了无数次 Eastman's name is in the report over a thousand times.
-他不应该回避吗 -丹 - That's not a conflict? - Dan.
他们对你发起了刑事转介 They filed a criminal referral against you.
他们想让你不再掺和这事 They want you gone.
中情局怎么会认为我入侵了他们的系统 H-How did the Agency come to the conclusion that I'm a hacker?
他们是怎么知道我的电脑里有什么的 H-How do they even know what's on my computer?
他们说他们进行了搜查 They say they conducted a search.
搜查美国参议院 Of the United States Senate?
这个委员会建立的初衷就在于 The whole reason this committee was established in the first place
阻止中情局监视美国公民 was to stop the CIA from spying on U.S. Citizens.
参议员正在和哈里·里德 The senator is talking to Harry Reid about
-讨论这件事... -他们进那个房间了吗 - that very thing... - Did they go into that room?
那个房间是禁止进入的 他们进去了吗 That room is off-limits. Did they go into that fucking room?
我不知道 I don't know.
但我知道共和党会支持他们 I do know that the Republicans are gonna run with this.
他们会利用这件事来诋毁这份报告 They're gonna use it to discredit the report.
他们会利用这件事来诋毁你 They're gonna use it to discredit you.
丹 他们要指控你违反法律 Dan, they're accusing you of breaking the law.
你得去请个律师 You're gonna need a lawyer.
中情局里流传着一句话 There's a saying at the Agency:
"什么都不承认 "Admit nothing,
什么都否认 提出反诉" deny everything, make counteraccusations."
他们现在正是这么做的 That's what they're doing.
中情局正在调查你... The CIA is investigating you for...
克利福德-贝格-维金斯律师事务所
应该被调查的是他们 而不是我 They're the ones who should be investigated, not me.
琼斯先生 克利福德现在可以见你了 Mr. Jones? Mr. Clifford will see you now.
我们的电脑系统 Our computer system
甚至都没连接中情局的主机 isn't even connected to the CIA mainframe.
我难道是周末跑到中情局总部 So did I just go over to Langley
入侵了他们的系统吗 and break in on a weekend?
似乎是天方夜谭 Seems unlikely.
他们手上有什么证据 So what evidence do they have?
一份文件 A document.
一份文件 什么样的文件 A document? What kind of a document?
我不能告诉你 I can't tell you that.
因为是机密吗 Because, what, it's classified?
我被指派领导一项调查 I was tasked to lead an investigation
调查中情局于911事件后启动的一个项目 into a CIA program they started after 9/11,
他们将其称为强化审讯 what they called enhanced interrogation.
我猜你的调查结果对中情局有所批判 And I assume your work is critical of the Agency?
丹 这个国家有很多人 You know, Dan, a lot of people in this country
认为中情局为了保护他们 felt the CIA was justified in doing
而所做的一切都是正当的 whatever they had to do to keep us safe.
我有些朋友在那天失去了他们的亲人朋友 I have friends who lost people that day.
还有很多人在周四晚上看《24小时》 And a lot of people watch 24 on Thursday nights
听杰克·鲍尔说 and hear Jack Bauer say,
"我不想违反宪法 "I don't want to bypass the Constitution,
但现在是非常时期" but these are extraordinary circumstances,"
他说完这话就用刀捅他们 just before, you know, he sticks a knife in them
逼他们说出阴谋 and makes them give up a plot.
这样是行不通的 It-it doesn't work that way.
温斯顿·丘吉尔说过 Well, as Winston Churchill said,
"历史是由胜利者书写的" "History is written by the victors."
其实不是丘吉尔说的 是赫尔曼·戈林说的 Churchill didn't really say that; Hermann Goring did.
他的原话是"我们在历史上留下的形象 And what he said was, "We will go down in history
要么是世界上最伟大的政治家 either as the world's greatest statesmen
要么是最坏的恶人" or its worst villains."
所以你的报告将会决定 So your report is gonna determine that:
是政治家还是恶人 statesmen or villains?
你进行这项调查有多久了 丹 How long have you been working on this project, Dan?
五年 Five years.
五年 一切成果都可能化为乌有 Five years, and it could all go away,
因为这些指控而烟消云散 just vanish in the face of these allegations.
我完全能想象 I can certainly imagine
像你这样雄心勃勃的年轻人花费数年的时间 an ambitious young man like yourself spends years
埋头于调查一些可怕的场面 with his head buried in some terrible spectacle,
对调查过程感到沮丧 gets frustrated with the process,
遇到一个能更快传出真相的机会 sees an opportunity to get the truth out faster,
也许会选择越界 maybe crosses a line.
我猜这是你参与过的 I'm assuming this is the most important thing
-最重要的事情 -我没做 - you've ever been a part of. - I didn't do it.
又或是一位同样雄心勃勃的参议员 Or I can see an equally ambitious senator
鼓励你去做点什么 encouraging you to do something.
现在是告诉我的好机会 Now would be a good time to tell me.
不是那样的 That did not happen.
我的所作所为是个人行为 我独自行动 What I did, I did on my own. I acted alone.
-你确实偷了文件 -我没偷 - So you did steal the document? - I did not steal it.
-你需要用它来... -我转移了它 - You needed it to... - I relocated it.
我把它放进了保险柜 I put it in a safe.
如果他们有办法销毁录像带 If they had a way of destroying tapes,
-那他们肯定能... -每个人都各执一词 - then surely they could get... - Everyone has their own words.
语言是用来选择立场的 The language is built to choose sides.
你为什么要转移它 Now, why did you relocate it?
文件总有办法从服务器上消失 Documents had a way of disappearing off the server.
例如 在2010年 超过八百份文件 For instance, in 2010, over 800 documents
在没有任何解释的情况下消失了 just vanished without any explanation.
所以一直以来都存在电脑问题 So you had computer issues all along.
还有谁知道电脑上有什么 Who else knew what was on the computers?
中情局雇用外部公司来审查文件 Well, the CIA hired an outside firm to vet the documents:
中心公司 Centra.
CACI国际公司也参与其中 And CACI was also involved.
-他们是什么来头 -承包商 - Who are they? - Contractors.
但吉姆·帕维特是他们的董事会成员 But Jim Pavitt is on their board.
他是前中情局行动副局长 Former deputy director of operations for the CIA,
吉姆·帕维特 在项目期间也是他 Jim Pavitt, during the program, Jim Pavitt.
报告提及了他的名字吗 And is he named in the report?
不能告诉我 Can't tell me.
所以他们不能销毁文件 So they can't destroy the document.
于是他们选择其次的办法 针对你 Then they can go after the next best thing: you.
把你说成狂热分子 Make you a zealot.
你触及过的东西都被玷污了 Anything you touch is tainted.
可想而知 中情局会声称 I could see the Agency saying that
你违反了反间谍法 this is a violation of the Espionage Act,
计算机欺诈与滥用法 the... Computer Fraud and Abuse Act,
谁知道还有些什么 who knows what else.
如果他们指控我 And if they file a charge against me,
我会被判多少年 how long could I go away for?
说不好 二十年 或许还不止 I don't know. 20 years, maybe more.
我没有入侵中情局的电脑系统 I did not hack into the CIA computer system.
我的电脑水平停留在使用Word文档 I mean, my com... my computer skills stop at Microsoft Word.
他们可能清楚这一点 They probably know that.
我问你个问题 Let me ask you something:
参议院职员能挣多少钱 How much does a Senate staffer make?
我这个级别的话 大约能挣十万 At my level? About-about a hundred grand.
你有退休金 存款 或者家族财产吗 Any retirement, savings, family money?
没有 No.
那我们得谈谈我的预付费用 So, we should discuss my retainer.
-多少钱 -三万起 - How much is that? - $30,000 to start.
如果进入庭审阶段 后面得再一个零 And if it goes to trial, add a zero.
知道你坐在这和我谈话 Nothing could make them happier
他们再开心不过了 than knowing you're sitting here talking to me.
你正中他们下怀 丹 That's what they want, Dan.
把你的钱都花在我身上 Make you bleed money all over my floor.
你想要我的专业意见吗 不收费 Do you want my expert opinion, for free?
你面临的其实不是法律问题 You don't really have a legal problem.
你面临的是曝光度问题 You have a sunlight problem.
我相信你认识能帮你解决这个问题的人 I'm sure you know people who can help you solve it.
丹尼尔·琼斯 Daniel Jones.
我没想过你会回电 I didn't think you'd ever return my calls.
你的上级知道 Does your boss know you're talking to a guy
你和报社记者谈话吗 with a byline and a tape recorder?
我认为你应该调查一件事 There's something going on I think you should look into.
涉及到中情局 It involves the Agency.
好吧 是关于你正在编写 Okay. Is it that report you've been working on,
没有公布过的那份报告吗 the one that never quite comes out?
电脑 跟入侵电脑有关 Computers. It has to do with the hacking of computers.
好吧 谁的电脑 All right, whose?
美国参议院 The United States Senate.
有人入侵了美国参议院的电脑 Someone hacked into the Senate?
不会吧 好吧 No shit? Okay.
你知道是外国还是国内的人干的吗 You have any idea if it was foreign or domestic?
好吧 明白 你... All right, yes, you...
抱歉 你刚刚提到中情局 sorry, you said it was the Agency.
中情局和参议院的电脑有什么关系 So what-what does the CIA have to do with U.S. Senate computers?
埃文 你是《纽约时报》的国家安全记者 Evan, you're the national security reporter for The New York Times.
你自己去查 好吗 You can figure it out. All right?
早上好 参议员 Morning, Senator.
你找我吗 You wanted to see me?
你知道这件事吗 You know anything about this?
"中情局拘留项目纷争中的电脑搜查" "Computer Searches at Center of Dispute on CIA Detentions."
你知道这是怎么出现在《纽约时报》上的吗 You have any idea how that ended up in The New York Times?
我看到这篇报道了 很准确 Yeah, I saw that. It looks accurate.
麦凯恩参议员已经开始把中情局称为流氓机构 Senator McCain is already calling the CIA a rogue agency.
你对爱德华·斯诺登这样的人有什么看法吗 丹 What are your thoughts on someone like Edward Snowden, Dan?
参议员 我知道你对于泄密的看法 Well, Senator, I know how you feel about leaks.
我认为他是个卖国贼 简单明了 I think he's a traitor, plain and simple.
我的职责是 It's my job to provide oversight
用治理工具进行监督 with the tools of governance,
而不是用媒体这一套 not lights and cameras and headlines.
你希望我辞职吗 Do you want me to resign?
不 No.
但我需要你帮我写一篇演讲稿 But I think I might need you to write me a speech.
范斯坦参议员今天在参议院发表讲话称 Senator Feinstein claimed today on the Senate floor
中情局入侵了参议院情报委员会的电脑 that the CIA hacked the Senate Intelligence Committee's computers
以阻挠一项对于过去行为的调查 to thwart an investigation into past practices.
你能进行回应吗 Can you respond to that?
首先 我们绝对不会 Well, first, we in no way, shape or form
试图阻挠调查报告的公布 tried to thwart the release of the report.
我们希望了结这件事 We want that behind us.
至于这起指控称 As far as this allegation that
中情局入侵了参议院的电脑系统 the CIA somehow hacked into the Senate computer system,
这与事实完全不符 nothing could be further from the truth.
我们绝不会那么做 We just wouldn't do that.
这完全不合理 It's beyond the scope of reason.
谢谢 Thank you.
我理解你的立场 参议员 I understand your position, Senator,
我也了解了布伦南局长的回应 and I am aware of Director Brennan's comments.
你听说了林赛·格雷厄姆今天早上 Did you hear what Lindsey Graham said this morning,
对于中情局入侵我们的电脑系统的评论吗 about the Agency breaking into our computers?
"立法部门应该对中情局宣战 "The legislative branch should declare war on the CIA.
有人应该被开除 有人应该去坐牢" Heads should roll, people should go to jail."
这就是你想要的吗 让人坐牢 Is that what you want? Send people to jail?
监狱的存在是有原因的 We do have jails for a reason.
司法部调查了中情局 The Justice Department investigated the CIA,
然后决定不起诉 and they decided not to prosecute.
这是他们的决定 不是我们的 It's their call, not ours.
这届政府上台时 Now, when this administration took office,
面临着经济崩溃的极大风险 we faced the very real possibility of economic collapse.
我们得做出抉择 We had a decision to make:
要将政治资本消耗在 Do we spend our political capital on going around
追究责任人 还是解决问题 trying to find people to blame, or do we solve the problem?
也许解决问题的办法 Maybe the way to solve the problem
就是追究责任人 is to hold people accountable.
你有想过历史为何会重演吗 Do you ever wonder why history repeats itself?
我认为也许是因为 Well, I think maybe it's because
我们有时不会吸取以往的教训 we don't always listen the first time.
参议员 中情局的人 他们有家室 Senator, the people at the Agency... they have families.
他们的孩子可能会失去父母 There are children who might lose a parent.
几年前 某个极端组织在我女儿卧室窗外的 Years ago, some radical group put a bomb in the flower box
花箱里放了炸弹 就在这外面 outside of my daughter's bedroom window, right out here.
天气要是再暖和一些 可能就爆炸了 Had it been any warmer out, it would have exploded.
还有一次 And then there was the time
我发现哈维·米尔克被枪杀于自己的办公室 that I found Harvey Milk shot to death in his office.
我很清楚从事公共服务的风险 I-I think I'm aware of the risks of public service.
奥巴马总统上任三天后 President Obama ended the torture program
就关停了酷刑项目 three days after taking office.
中情局搞的强化审讯技术 不是我们的烂摊子 The EITs, what the CIA did... that is not our mess.
对 不是 No, it's not,
但这不是我们要问的问题 不是吗 but that's not the question we're asking, is it?
我们要问的问题是 谁来收拾这个烂摊子 The question we're asking is: Who is going to clean it up?
我们来收拾 So let's do that.
不过得先让布伦南局长向我和我的职员道歉 Right after Director Brennan apologizes to me and my staff.
特别监察长来了 The Inspector General is here.
进去吧 Go ahead in.
至于中情局搜查参议院电脑一事 In regards to the CIA search of Senate computers,
我们进行了调查 we've looked into the matter
并建议司法部 and have recommended that the Department of Justice
开启刑事调查 begin a criminal investigation.
很好 Good.
我们也是 So have we.
丹·琼斯 参议院首席调查员 Dan Jones, lead Senate investigator.
我说的不是参议院职员 Not the Senate staff.
是中情局 The CIA.
我们 Us?
你要控告我或我的职员违反法律吗 Are-are you accusing me or my staff of breaking the law?
我的理解是五名中情局职员 My understanding is that five CIA employees
进入了不允许进入的房间 entered a room that was off-limits.
是谁下的命令 On whose orders?
范斯坦参议员说得对 Senator Feinstein is right to call
这违背了三权分立的原则 this a violation of the separation of powers.
中情局不能监视参议院 The CIA cannot spy on the U.S. Congress.
作为特别监察长 我要针对中情局的行为 As inspector general, I'm gonna have to launch
发起一项全面调查 a full investigation into the Agency's actions.
我要去坐牢了吗 Am I going to jail?
不 他们撤销了指控 No, they're dropping the charges.
你要继续编写报告 You're going back to work.
选出最重要的调查结果 完成总结 Take the most important findings, finish the summary...
不能超过四百页 no more than 400 pages.
我要去让委员会投票表决将其公布 I'm going to ask the committee to vote to release it.
你也看到他们投票的结果了 So, you saw they voted.
十一比三 11 to three.
他们想公布一份概要 They want to release an executive summary.
如果公布出去 我的人会有危险 That thing goes out, it puts my people in danger,
那些现在身处危险境地的 who are out there in a dangerous world today,
履行职责的人 trying to do their jobs.
情况将对他们很不利 Pulls the rug out from under them.
任何你认为会危害到你的人的事情 Anything that you feel puts your people in harm's way
都将继续保密 stays classified.
我担心的是 My concern is this:
如果参议院公布一部分报告 If-if the Senate puts out a small pile of pages
媒体就会为之疯狂 and the press goes nuts,
然后每个人都想看到更多的报告 then everybody's gonna want to see a bigger pile of pages.
你一直说总统想让这件事翻篇 You keep saying the president wants to turn the page.
那就赶紧翻篇 Well, then turn the page.
了结这件事 Close the damn book.
范斯坦参议员要求白宫 Senator Feinstein has asked the White House
负责最终的评论和编写 to head up final comments and redactions.
她想把我们拉下水 She wants us right in the middle of it.
然后呢 And?
然后我认为这正是你所希望的 And I think that's exactly where you want us.
你可以涂黑不想公布的部分 You'll have the pen.
领导层指示 Leadership specified
我们可以删去任何可能会导致 that we should redact anything that could result in
外勤职员面临法律风险的内容 legal exposure for officers in the field,
无论是过去还是现在 past or present.
基本上 只要存在疑问 就涂黑 Basically, if there's any questions, black it out.
你看到这个了吗 You see this?
搞什... What the...
这是在搞什么 fuck is this?
下午好 玛茜人呢 Good afternoon. Where's Marcy?
在会议室 Conference room.
下周初 Early the next week.
周三 Wednesday.
嗯 可以 Yeah, that'll work.
把议事日程给我 谢谢 And you get me the agenda. Thank you.
想象一下你拿起一本书 Imagine you pick up a book,
在第237页"空白"化水为酒 and "Blank" turns water into wine on page 237,
此处三件事都是耶稣所为
在第71页"空白"治愈了一个麻风病人 and on page 71 "Blank" Heals a leper,
在第295页"空白"死而复生 and on page 295 "Blank" rises from the dead.
要怎么才知道这些空白都是同一个人 How do you know the blanks are all the same person?
中情局不是同意使用化名吗 I thought that the CIA agreed to using pseudonyms.
是的 但现在连化名都被涂黑了 They did, but now even the fake names are gone.
还有日期 And the dates.
整个事件都被涂黑了 The entire story is gone.
我希望你今天能强势一点 I hope you took your strong pills today.
知道事情的经过还不够吗 Isn't it enough to know what actually happened?
我们需要知道参与者的名字吗 Do we need to know the names of the people involved?
但参与者的真名并未出现在报告中 But the actual names aren't in the report.
有人能根据他们的化名 Someone could figure out who our people are
猜出他们是谁 based on their pseudonyms.
我在网上看到了一张我丈夫的照片 You know, I found a photo of my husband
表明了我和他的关系 on the Internet linking him to me.
秘密是很难保守的 Secrecy is very hard to maintain.
我记得你在你的任命听证会上 I believe you introduced your husband publicly
公开介绍了你的丈夫 at your confirmation hearing.
上了公共事务频道 It was on C-SPAN.
其中的一些参与者正在外执行任务 Some of these people... they are out there in the world, right now.
是的 没错 Yes, they are.
亚历克站的一位职员 There's an officer from Alec Station
在五百页的文件里被提及了41次 mentioned 41 times in 500 pages.
1998年 她的团队未能阻止 In 1998, her team missed the bombing
美国驻肯尼亚和坦桑尼亚大使馆的炸弹袭击 of the U.S. Embassy in Kenya and Tanzania.
1999年 他们未能阻止 1999, they missed the bombing
伊斯兰堡万豪酒店的炸弹袭击 of the Marriott Hotel in Islamabad.
2000年 她被告知有两个基地组织成员 In 2000, she was made aware of two Al Qaeda operatives
抵达了洛杉矶 who arrived in Los Angeles.
在本·拉登小组工作的联调局探员 FBI officers, working within the bin Laden unit,
请求进行调查的许可 requested permission to investigate.
我们不打算这么做 That's not how we want to play it.
中情局知道他们来了美国 The CIA knew they were on American soil
却毫无作为 and didn't do anything.
阿米达接着离开了美国 Al-Mihdhar then left the States
在科尔号袭击事件中扮演了关键角色 to play a key role in the bombing of the USS Cole,
之后他回到美国和哈兹米一起劫持了77号航班 before returning to hijack Flight 77 with al-Hazmi
撞进了五角大楼 and crash into the Pentagon.
你想保护这个人的身份 And you want to protect this person's identity.
我们还想删去承包商的化名 We'd also like to redact the pseudonyms of the contractors.
米切尔博士的名字已经登上《纽约时报》了 Dr. Mitchell was already quoted by name in The New Yorker.
他还在专业会议上分发手册 He was handing out brochures at professional conferences
告诉别人他为中情局工作 telling people he worked for the CIA.
如果我们要保护中情局职员的身份 If we are protecting the identities of CIA staff,
我们同样需要保护我们的承包商 we need to protect our contractors as well.
米切尔和杰森承包的是 Mitchell and Jessen were given a contract by the Agency
中情局一个无效的项目 for a program that didn't work.
中情局还和他们的公司 The CIA also agreed to a five million dollar
签订了一个五百万的保障条款 indemnification clause for their company that covered,
除了其他费用外 还用以支付刑事起诉的费用 among other expenses, criminal prosecution.
我把用在哈立德身上的碎布留下来了 You know, I kept the rag we used on KSM.
风波过去后你应该把那玩意挂网上卖了 You should eBay that bad boy when this is all over.
赚一大笔钱 Make a mint.
中情局的一份内部备忘录得出结论 An internal CIA memo concluded
称米切尔和杰森"对于几乎所有同事都持有的 that Mitchell and Jessen "have both shown blatant disregard
道德伦理展现出明目张胆的漠视" for the ethics shared by almost all of their colleagues."
承包商的化名必须保留 The pseudonyms for the contractors need to stay.
各位 这件事我们已经商量几个月了 Guys, we've been at this for months.
黑狱的地点呢 What about the locations of the black sites?
国名呢 The country names?
我们向那些国家承诺过替他们保密 We made commitments to those countries to maintain their secrecy.
不能出现国名 No country names.
这几点是不容谈判的 Not open to negotiating these points.
我们得考虑到中情局的士气 We need to consider the morale of the CIA here.
我们如果公布了这份报告 Now, we-we publish this report,
-很有可能我们将失去他们 -失去他们 - there's a very good chance we could lose them. - Lose them?
什么意思 What does that mean?
那中情局里那些站出来反对这个项目的 What about the morale of all the people at the Agency
那些人的士气呢 who spoke out against the program?
他们呢 What about them?
他们从黑狱发回电报 People who sent cables back from black sites
说自己想被调离 saying they wanted to be transferred
因为他们对那里正在发生的事情感到厌恶 because they were disgusted by what was being done.
好了 听着 All right, look.
正是丹替我们 We have... Dan more than anyone...
在没人愿意的情况下 have worked to uncover the truth about this
揭开了这件事的真相 when no one else would.
我们不会允许行政部门 We will not allow this to be covered up
掩盖这件事 by the executive branch.
奥巴马总统将其称为酷刑 President Obama called it torture.
布什和切尼才不会这么做 Bush and Cheney wouldn't do that.
他签署了行政命令来中止这个项目 He signed an executive order getting rid of it.
好好想想 万一不幸 Now, just imagine, God forbid,
在我们的任上又出现恐怖袭击 there's another terrorist attack on our watch.
此后二十年都不会再有 There won't be another Democrat
民主党人入主白宫 in the White House for 20 years.
我还想谈谈哈立德部分的删减 I'd also like to talk about the redactions concerning KSM.
科里·加德纳 来自共和党的挑战者 Cory Gardner, the Republican challenger,
将成为下一任来自 will be the next United States senator
科罗拉多州的参议员 from the state of Colorado,
他击败了现任民主党参议员马克·尤德尔 defeating the Democratic incumbent, Mark Udall.
这是共和党的一场重大胜利 A major, major win for the Republicans.
克里斯·弗雷茨在科罗拉多州为您带来最新情况 Chris Frates is standing by in Colorado.
沃夫 这对科罗拉多州而言意义重大 This is huge for, uh, Colorado, Wolf.
这是共和党自2002年以来第一次 This is the first time a Republican has won
在科罗拉多州拿下参议院席位 the Senate race state-wide in Colorado since 2002.
这是科罗拉多州的重要一夜 Big night for Colorado,
也是两党争夺参议院控制权的重要一夜 and a big night for control of the United States Senate.
她在等你 She's expecting you.
我刚刚接到 So, I just got a call
国务卿克里的来电 from Secretary of State Kerry.
他认为这份报告的公布 He thinks that, with the release of the report,
打击伊斯兰国的同盟将会瓦解 that the coalition against ISIL could collapse.
时机选的真好 Isn't that a bit convenient?
-他在这个时候打给你... -丹 - He calls you just before... - Dan.
克里是从哪得知这个情报的 中情局吗 Where did Kerry get his intel on this? The CIA?
-可信吗 -我们的大使馆可能会受到袭击 - Is it credible? - Embassies could be attacked.
人质可能会被杀害 Hostages could be killed.
这不过是另一种拖延战术罢了 It's just another stall tactic.
他建议把报告交给总统 He suggested giving the report to the president,
这样报告就能在事态平稳下来后公布 so that it could be released later, when hostilities cease.
参议员 你在一周后就将失去对委员会的掌控 You lose control of the committee in a week, Senator.
是的 我很清楚共和党人占多数后 Yes, I am aware of what happens
会出现什么情况 丹 when the Republicans are in the majority, Dan.
我也很想公布这份报告 Look, I want to get this report out as much as anyone,
但我和他相识很久了 but I have known him a long time.
我倾向于相信他 I tend to believe him.
没人会公布这件事的 Nobody else is gonna tell this story.
-丹 参议员还要参加午宴 -如果我们现在停手 - Dan, the senator has a luncheon. - If we stop now,
我们不就成了掩盖这件事的同谋吗 aren't we a part of the cover-up?
不是说要强势吗 参议员 Strong pills, Senator?
我觉得你应该回家好好休息 I think you should go home and get some rest.
你看着很疲惫 You look tired.
玛茜 等我五分钟 Marcy, if I could have five minutes.
没问题 Of course.
帕涅塔审查报告 最高机密 敏感信息隔离
委员会对中情局拘留和审讯项目的调查报告 概要 机密
你见过一个叫格雷戈·克雷格的人吗 Did you ever meet a guy called Greg Craig?
见过...奥巴马上台时的白宫顾问吗 Just in pa... White House counsel when Obama took office?
-点头之交 -好吧 - Just in passing. - Right.
总统当选后 让克雷格 So, right after he got elected, the president asked Craig
想办法处理 to come up with a plan to deal with
酷刑项目带来的后果 the aftermath of the torture program.
于是他把国防部长盖茨 珍妮特·纳波利塔诺 So, he got Secretary of Defense Gates, Janet Napolitano,
希拉里·克林顿这些位高权重的人叫到房间 Hillary Clinton... serious people... in a room,
他征询他们的建议 and he asked for their recommendation.
-然后呢 -然后他们的共识是 - And? - And the consensus was that
总统应该任命一个独立的两党委员会 the president should appoint an independent bipartisan commission
来调查审讯和被拘留者的待遇 into interrogations and detainee treatment,
深入调查这一项目的效果 like a deep dive into what worked and what didn't
以及责任人 and... who was responsible.
就像他们在911事件后做的那样 You know, like what they did after 9/11,
就像你一直在做的事情那样 and like what you've been trying to do.
那他们为什么没有这么做 So why didn't they do that?
显然 总统认真听取了 Well, evidently, the president listened closely
他们的建议 to the recommendation.
他考虑了一下 然后拒绝了 He then thought about it, and then he said no.
他竞选期间一直声称自己持后党派立场 He'd spent an entire campaign saying he was post-partisan,
要清算布什政府的错误 so going after the Bush administration
与之对抗 flew in the face of all that.
在那之后 那个房间里的每个人改变主意了 And right then, everyone in that room changed their minds.
他们选择支持总统 不成立独立委员会 They sided with the president: no independent commission.
只有克雷格不同意 Everyone except Craig,
因为他认为这件事太过重要 because he thought it was too important.
你不能对人施以酷刑 You couldn't just torture people,
隐瞒它 试图使其不为人知 lie about it, and then hide it from history.
几个月后 克雷格辞职了 A few months later, Craig was gone,
这个烂摊子落在了参议院 and this mess wound up with the Senate.
还有你的手里 And you.
总统肯定清楚他这么做 Well, the president must have known that, by doing that,
会使调查变得几乎不可能 he was making it next to impossible.
他之前当过参议员 He came from the Senate.
丹 他们派你造了一艘船 Dan, they sent you off to build a boat,
但他们并不打算让它出海 but they had no intention of sailing it.
他们可能都没想到你能走到今天这步 They probably didn't think you'd get as far as you did.
回答我一个问题 Let me ask you a question.
如果中情局知道酷刑没有用 If the CIA knew that torture didn't work,
他们为什么要一直用它 why did they continue to do it?
911事件后 每个人都担惊受怕 After 9/11, everyone was scared...
害怕这样的事情还会发生 ...scared it might happen again,
如果发生了 中情局将会受到责难 and the CIA would be blamed if it did.
或许他们感到羞愧 Or maybe they were ashamed.
世界上最出色的 You know, how come the most sophisticated
情报组织怎么会 intelligence organization on Earth
连自己的人民都保护不了 couldn't keep its own people safe?
但恐惧和羞愧不会造就更好的政策决定 But fear and shame don't make for better policy decisions,
而我们抓到的人 and the fact that the people who we captured
与我们的长相不同 信仰不同 didn't look like us or believe the same things we do
使对他们使用酷刑变得容易多了 made it that much easier to do the things we did.
所以中情局的项目一启动 So once the CIA program started,
他们就得一直告诉人们这是有效的 they had to keep telling people it worked,
即使事实并非如此 even if it wasn't true.
他们自己的立场是如果无效 就是非法的 Their own position was that if it didn't work, it was illegal.
所以他们歪曲了结果 So they misrepresented the results.
如果能拿到你的报告 我们明天就会印刷出来 If we had your report, we would print it tomorrow.
一字不漏 All of it.
参议员说她会公布报告的摘要 The senator said she would release a summary of the report.
真的吗 Really?
在中情局和白宫的反对下 Over the objections of the CIA and the White House?
你真的以为这会发生吗 You really think that's gonna happen?
如果我给了你 会发生什么 If I gave it to you, what would happen?
有些人会认为你是英雄 Some people will think you're a hero,
而有些人大概会认为你是卖国贼 and some will probably think you're a traitor.
爱德华·斯诺登就是如此 Look at Edward Snowden.
不 如果要公布 No. If it's gonna come out,
只能以正确的方式公布 it's gonna come out the right way.
如果没能公布呢 What if it doesn't?
那我就没尽到职责 Then I didn't do my job.
抱歉 I'm sorry.
抱歉 Sorry.
正在进行民主党会议
搞定了平价医疗法案后 So, with the Affordable Care Act behind us,
总统想要 the president would like to
认真探讨移民改革事宜 begin a serious discussion about immigration reform.
显然我们现在在两院 Now, obviously we've had some setbacks
遇到了一些挫折 in both the House and the Senate,
所以策略是至关重要的 以及团结 so strategy has become paramount... unity as well.
所以我们想认真探讨一下... So, we would like to really start talking about...
打断一下 麦克唐纳先生 Excuse me, Mr. McDonough.
我想讨论一下关于中情局的调查报告 I would like to discuss the report on the CIA
以及白宫对此的立场 and the White House's position.
这不是这场会议的议题 That's not the topic of this particular caucus.
总统愿意讨论... The president would like to discuss...
我国做了纳粹做过的事 Our country did things the Nazis did,
那些让我们谴责其他政权的事 things that made us condemn other regimes.
这届政府的立场 And the position of this administration
是隐瞒这个信息 is to suppress this information,
来保护那些做了这些事的人吗 to keep the people who did these things safe?
我可以向你保证这不是 I can assure you that is not
这届政府的立场 参议员 the position of this administration, Senator.
你和约翰·布伦南 You worked with John Brennan
在国家安全委员会共事过 at the National Security Council.
我知道布伦南在总统上任后 Now, I understand that Brennan gave this president
向他做了第一次安全简报 his first security briefing when he took office.
现在中情局的布伦南局长 And now CIA Director Brennan
在无人机项目上与总统紧密合作 is working closely with the president on the drone program.
好笑的是 You know, it's funny.
我每次去中情局 Every time I go over to the CIA,
他们都说我替参议院办事 they claim I'm doing the Senate's bidding,
而我每次来这里 and every time I come here,
你们都说我替中情局办事 you claim I'm doing the CIA's bidding.
我的任期只剩下几天了 I only have a few days left in my term here,
如果在我离任前没有公布报告的计划 and if there isn't a plan to release the report before I go,
我准备好在参议院的台上把报告读一遍了 I'm prepared to read it on the floor of the Senate.
到那时只能白宫 And either the White House
或共和党人来阻止我了 or the Republicans will have to stop me.
你想我们怎么做 What would you have us do?
如果我们现在追究布什和切尼的责任 Now, we go after Bush and Cheney on this,
要如何阻止共和党 what's to prevent the Republicans
报复我们 废止医保呢 from coming back at us and trying to repeal health care?
我们如果追究中情局的责任 他们可能会说 We go after the CIA, uh, maybe they say,
"那好吧 移民改革不予讨论" "Okay, well, immigration reform is off the table."
他们或许会针对控枪议题 Maybe it's gun control.
民主确实是一团乱麻 Now, democracy is messy...
但仔细想想 but let's just think
世界上有几个国家 how many countries there are in the world
会允许编写这样的报告 where a report like this could even get done.
我想让我国不仅仅允许编写报告 I would like us to be more than the country that did the report.
我想让我国允许公布报告 I'd like us to be the country that made it public.
这才是我希望看到的结果 And that is what I intend to see happen.
有请来自加州的资深参议员发言 I yield the floor to the senior senator from California.
在过去的六年里 Over the past six years,
一个调查小组仔细研读了 a small team of investigators pored over
超过630万页中情局记录 more than 6.3 million pages of CIA records
以完成这份报告 to complete this report.
调查表明中情局十年前的行为 It shows that the CIA's actions a decade ago
是我国价值观和我国历史上的污点 are a stain on our values and on our history.
这份五百页报告摘要的公布 The release of this 500-page summary
没法清除这个污点 cannot remove that stain,
但它能够告诉我国以及世界人民 but it can and does say to our people and the world
美国足够强大 足以承认自己的错误 that America is big enough to admit when it's wrong
足够自信 足以吸取过去的教训 and confident enough to learn from its mistakes.
公布这份报告是重塑我们的价值观 Releasing this report is an important step toward
以及向世界展示我们是一个 restoring our values and showing the world
公正的法治社会的重要一步 that we are, in fact, a just and lawful society.
会有人利用这份报告 大肆宣扬 There are those who will seize upon the report and say,
"看看美国人干的好事" "See what the Americans did?"
他们会利用这份报告 And they will try to use it
来为他们的恶行辩护 或煽动更多的暴力 to justify evil actions or to incite more violence.
我们没法阻止这一点 We cannot prevent that.
但历史会评判 But history will judge us
我们维护公正的法治社会的承诺 by our commitment to a just society governed by law
我们面对丑陋真相的意愿 and the willingness to face an ugly truth
以及保证"决不再犯" and say "Never again."
谢谢 Thank you.
现在有请来自亚利桑那州的参议员 I now yield the floor to the senator from Arizona.
令人惊讶的是 What might come as a surprise
这些酷刑在将911事件的 is how little these practices did to aid our efforts
罪魁祸首绳之以法 to bring 9/11 culprits to justice and
以及防止现在和未来的恐怖袭击上几乎毫无作用 to find and prevent terrorist attacks today and tomorrow.
这令人瞠目结舌 That could be a real surprise,
因为这与情报职员 since it contradicts the many assurances
公开和私下的很多承诺 provided by intelligence officials,
互相矛盾 on the record and in private,
参议院对于中情局审讯的调查报告 约翰·麦凯恩参议员
他们声称强化审讯技术在反恐战争中 that enhanced interrogation techniques were indispensable
是必不可少的 in the war against terrorism.
我认为断言我们不靠这种手段就没法赢得战争 I think it's an insult to the many intelligence officers
对于很多情报职员来说是一种侮辱 who have acquired good intelligence
他们没有伤害或侮辱囚犯 without hurting or degrading prisoners
就获取了可靠的情报 to assert we can't win this war without such methods.
是的 我们能获胜 而且终将获胜 Yes, we can, and we will.
但到头来 But in the end,
酷刑没能实现其目的 torture's failure to serve its intended purpose
不是反对使用酷刑的主要理由 isn't the main reason to oppose its use.
问题不在于我们的敌人 而在于我们自身 This question isn't about our enemies; it's about us.
在于我们过去和现在是怎样 以及渴望变成怎样 It's about who we were, who we are, and who we aspire to be.
在于我们向世人展现什么样的形象 It's about how we represent ourselves to the world.
我们的敌人丧失良知 Our enemies act without conscience.
我们决对不能 We must not.
黛安·范斯坦参议员于今日 Senator Dianne Feinstein today
揭露了中情局已经不再使用的 exposed the CIA's now extinct
强化审讯技术 enhanced interrogation techniques.
参议院今天的所作所为 The thing that strikes me about
参议院调查报告猛烈抨击中情局的审讯手段
打动我的地方在于 what the Senate was doing today...
黛安·范斯坦 杰伊·洛克菲勒 Dianne Feinstein, Jay Rockefeller...
他们竭尽所能 is they were doing everything they can
确保这种事情不再发生 to make sure this doesn't happen again.
因为像这样将其公开... Because by going public like this...
丹 Dan.
干得很好 You did well.
谢谢 Thank you.
"如果你想这么做 我们不会放过你的" "We're gonna be on you if you try to do this."
报告公布后 丹尼尔·J·琼斯离开了委员会
2015年 奥巴马总统签署了麦凯恩-范斯坦宪法修正案 禁止中情局使用强化审讯技术
报告提及的涉及这些行为的中情局职员无一被起诉
其中很多人还得以升职
其中一人成为了中情局局长
"如果有美国士兵如此不道德且无耻地伤害囚犯
我诚恳万分地要求你们对他施以此等严重罪行所要求的苛刻且严厉的刑罚
因为他们的行为给他们自身和他们的国家带来了羞愧 耻辱和伤害"
—乔治·华盛顿